What a difference 30 years makes

[fantastic]

Tow "ratings" are for sales purposes.

Disagree, They've went to a common standard. It's not just sales talk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J2807

"SAE J2807 is a standardized guideline that defines how Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) should be determined for passenger vehicles, SUVs, and light-duty trucks. The standard ensures a consistent, objective, and fair comparison of towing capacities among different manufacturers."

 

[burbguy82]

Disagree, They've went to a common standard. It's not just sales talk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J2807

"SAE J2807 is a standardized guideline that defines how Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) and Trailer Weight Rating (TWR) should be determined for passenger vehicles, SUVs, and light-duty trucks. The standard ensures a consistent, objective, and fair comparison of towing capacities among different manufacturers."

I am very familiar with J2807, before and after.

Toyota to my knowledge was the only truck maker using the standard and advertising, quoting the weight under this standard. When the big 3 started to use the standard, their towing ratings magically went down.

My point was, that the realistic towing requirements of daily use, encompassing the majority and what is actually moved on a DAILY basis, has not changed in the last 30 years, and trucks of that era still run on the roads. So being able to tow more is irrelevant really, as opposed to being able to live through 30 years of towing a realistic and useable load.

 

[thr_wedge]

Progress cannot be slowed

 

[fantastic]

I am very familiar with J2807, before and after.

Toyota to my knowledge was the only truck maker using the standard and advertising, quoting the weight under this standard. When the big 3 started to use the standard, their towing ratings magically went down.

My point was, that the realistic towing requirements of daily use, encompassing the majority and what is actually moved on a DAILY basis, has not changed in the last 30 years, and trucks of that era still run on the roads. So being able to tow more is irrelevant really, as opposed to being able to live through 30 years of towing a realistic and useable load.

I'm seeing a lot more 1/2 tons towing 5th wheels too. Used to be more of a 3/4 ton or larger but there they are ripping down the road...ha! Yes, I do see a lot of regular loads that one would expect with the standard 1/2 ton pickup household chores. I don't know what the ratio's are for towing in that segment but I, & I'm sure you as well, would want to keep it 8k or less.

 

[JimPghPA]

What were the real highway causing speeds 30 years ago?

I don't think trucks back then were designed to cruse at todays highway speeds.

 

[MrHorspwer]

My point was, that the realistic towing requirements of daily use, encompassing the majority and what is actually moved on a DAILY basis, has not changed in the last 30 years, and trucks of that era still run on the roads. So being able to tow more is irrelevant really, as opposed to being able to live through 30 years of towing a realistic and useable load.

Amazingly, many HD trucks don't tow DAILY. People don't tow their travel trailer or fifth wheel every day. They tow them occasionally. I know, it's a difficult concept to understand.

To that end: Hell yes towables have gotten larger.

In 1996, the largest fifth wheel grossed around 13k lbs. Not coincidentally, that's about what a 1-ton dually of the era could tow.

In 2026, a 12k GVWR is a mid-sized 5er and can be towed by a 3/4-ton with ease, making them much more accessible to more people. Fifth wheel nose caps have also been designed to accommodate the shorter 6.5' beds of the common CCSB truck, negating the need for a 8' bed.

That's the first point: A modern CCSB 3/4-ton truck is easy to drive every day and can accommodate loads and towing beyond that of a 1-ton CCLB dually of 30 years ago, which is a tough truck to live with as an everyday vehicle.

In 2019, the biggest toy haulers were grossing 20k. That pretty well aligned with the capabilities of the luxury tow pig (1-ton, CCLB, dually, diesel) that typically hook up to these.

In 2026, with a new generation of trucks laying down even bigger towing numbers, the biggest toy haulers are now 23k GVWR.

That's the second point: The size of the trailers are growing with the capabilities of the trucks.

If you want to talk DAILY towing, I'd even say your opinion is wrong. In 1996, a contractor needed a medium duty dump truck to move a 18,000 lb backhoe. I see backhoes behind modern HD trucks all the time. Moving smaller than that, landscape contractors don't need anything special to pull around a skid steer or mini-excavator. A run-of-the-mill 3/4-ton will do this all day.

Follow the sales. As HD trucks became more capable, the need for smaller (4500/F450) medium duty trucks has waned. GM completely got out of the market for a while after the bankruptcy reorg and chose to retool Flint Assembly to make :drumroll: more HD pickups!

 

[JWC86]

Ok, then show me how the newer truck radiators have grown tremendously in size.

Here’s a 2020 f-150 radiator.
View attachment 323295
Here’s a 1995.
View attachment 323296
Not much size difference. Gain of 3 inches in width. Radiators are not the reason trucks have huge front ends. I’ve never seen a single article state that the reason for growing trucks is due to radiators. It’s always other reasons.

That is a GM 2500/3500 in your picture, not a F150

 

[JWC86]

2024 Silverado HD radiator: https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/radiator/chevrolet/2024/silverado 2500 hd/base/66l-v8/241684/c510689

Core Dimensions: 34 1/2 x 30 5/8 (diesel) = 1056.6 sq in
Core Dimensions: 37 1/2 x 23 1/4 (gas) = 871.9 sq in

1997 C3500 radiator: https://www.radiatorexpress.com/product/radiator/chevrolet/1997/c3500/base/74l-v8/221391/1034626

Core Dimensions: 34 x 19 1/4 = 654.5 sq in

That's a size increase of 61% and 33%, respectively.

That's only half the story. The other half is airflow management through the CRFM. Looking at the size of the grill openings, you can pretty well see the new trucks have much larger areas for air to enter. That's obvious. Within that area, how much air entering the opening is actually flowing through the coolers? Arguing against that is arguing against 30 years of development in CFD.

Basically, the radiator in the old truck is larger than it needs to be because the design of the vehicle foundationally has less airflow and less cooling capacity. If only 50% of the air entering the grill actually makes it through the radiator, that radiator needs to be 100% larger for the same cooling (this math is for demonstration purposes, not reality).

If you'd actually like to learn a little about this, here's an pretty in-depth article about the solutioning neceessary for getting a better tow rating on the Jeep Gladiator. Hint: Cooling capacity was the limiting factor but the couldn't make the CRFM larger.

https://www.jalopnik.com/the-engineering-behind-the-jeep-gladiators-tow-rating-1833657453/

Thanks for doing the leg work and posting the numbers, cooling is a huge factor for the increased frontal size of newer HD trucks, its not to make it easier to run over people.

 

[Kurtatron]

That is a GM 2500/3500 in your picture, not a F150

How did you determine that? I just posted an image from eBay. It’s not my picture. Besides, if the size dimensions are correct, my point remains the same.

 

[Kurtatron]

Thanks for doing the leg work and posting the numbers, cooling is a huge factor for the increased frontal size of newer HD trucks, its not to make it easier to run over people.

The intention is obviously not run people over, but pedestrian impact with a tall truck is much worse than a low car.

 

[JWC86]

How did you determine that? I just posted an image from eBay. It’s not my picture. Besides, if the size dimensions are correct, my point remains the same.

I was talking about the picture of the trucks you had in the original post.

The intention is obviously not run people over, but pedestrian impact with a tall truck is much worse than a low car.

View attachment 323346

Yes of course it would be worse in a truck...

 

[burbguy82]

What were the real highway causing speeds 30 years ago?

I don't think trucks back then were designed to cruse at todays highway speeds.

This is a crucial point. Most highways in that time frame and before were 55 mph. Big difference today.

If you want to talk DAILY towing, I'd even say your opinion is wrong. In 1996, a contractor needed a medium duty dump truck to move a 18,000 lb backhoe. I see backhoes behind modern HD trucks all the time. Moving smaller than that, landscape contractors don't need anything special to pull around a skid steer or mini-excavator. A run-of-the-mill 3/4-ton will do this all day.

Well my "opinion" is not really an opinion, as it is my own personal testimony from being in the trades on and off since the early 90s, and driving and hauling equipment in city traffic, from site to site.

Typically, most mini excavators are on the realm of 4500 lbs on the low side and 10000 lbs on the high side. Yes there are some that are heavier, but are not typical to what you see on sites or that you will be moving around on a daily basis. Typical skid steers weigh around 7500, with the heaviest units in the 11k realm.

You would need an real medium duty truck to haul the weight needed to haul an 18k mini ex and its trailer. Tow ratings and GCWR are in conflict sometimes, especially in the world of pickups. If you do the math, you will see what I mean.

In 1995, I towed a 10k excavator, with a 4k trailer, and loaded with plumbing materials and tools with a GMT-455 C3500HD truck, some of those trucks are still running around today. These trucks today are already dying. Major issues.

 

[Kurtatron]

I was talking about the picture of the trucks you had in the original post.



Yes of course it would be worse in a truck...

I didn’t post that original picture.

To be clear, I don’t care that people drive big vehicles. I dislike that the market is so obsessed with big, that small cars options dwindle every year.

Kinda how I feel about Manual transmissions. I wish I could get a manual transmission on a Toyota RAV4, for example. But since Americans don’t want manuals, I can’t get one.

 

[TiGeo]

Me in my wagon in front of this at night looking in my rear view...

 

[02SE]

Amazingly, many HD trucks don't tow DAILY. People don't tow their travel trailer or fifth wheel every day. They tow them occasionally. I know, it's a difficult concept to understand.

To that end: Hell yes towables have gotten larger.

In 1996, the largest fifth wheel grossed around 13k lbs. Not coincidentally, that's about what a 1-ton dually of the era could tow.

In 2026, a 12k GVWR is a mid-sized 5er and can be towed by a 3/4-ton with ease, making them much more accessible to more people. Fifth wheel nose caps have also been designed to accommodate the shorter 6.5' beds of the common CCSB truck, negating the need for a 8' bed.

That's the first point: A modern CCSB 3/4-ton truck is easy to drive every day and can accommodate loads and towing beyond that of a 1-ton CCLB dually of 30 years ago, which is a tough truck to live with as an everyday vehicle.

In 2019, the biggest toy haulers were grossing 20k. That pretty well aligned with the capabilities of the luxury tow pig (1-ton, CCLB, dually, diesel) that typically hook up to these.

In 2026, with a new generation of trucks laying down even bigger towing numbers, the biggest toy haulers are now 23k GVWR.

That's the second point: The size of the trailers are growing with the capabilities of the trucks.

If you want to talk DAILY towing, I'd even say your opinion is wrong. In 1996, a contractor needed a medium duty dump truck to move a 18,000 lb backhoe. I see backhoes behind modern HD trucks all the time. Moving smaller than that, landscape contractors don't need anything special to pull around a skid steer or mini-excavator. A run-of-the-mill 3/4-ton will do this all day.

Follow the sales. As HD trucks became more capable, the need for smaller (4500/F450) medium duty trucks has waned. GM completely got out of the market for a while after the bankruptcy reorg and chose to retool Flint Assembly to make :drumroll: more HD pickups!

I had a Dodge Dually in '95. It's tow rating was 12,800 lbs.
I have a '17 RAM Dually that is rated to tow over 30k lbs. I towed a 26k+ lb 5th wheel. So rolling down the road at over 36K lbs GCVW. It did it beautifully. Never threatening to overheat, even climbing steep grades, at altitude, at sometimes over 100° F ambient temps.

2026 trucks are even more capable than my '17.



Moving heavy weight up a steep grade on a hot day, usually with the A/C cranked up to keep the occupants comfortable, places a huge load on the cooling system. Hence the large grill and radiators that can deal with that heat load, at relatively low speeds, and also possibly at higher altitude, where air is less dense. Meaning even worse conditions for keeping the drivetrain heat under control.

While 1/2 ton trucks have also increased in capability, their increases are nowhere near the increase in towing and hauling capacity of the 3/4 and 1-ton trucks, particularly the Dually models.

1000 hp Super cars were mentioned. I have a Viper with forced Induction producing 1100 hp and torque. Moving it's 3300 lb weight is no problem. The pin weight of our last 5th wheel would crush the car, the drivetrain would fail if subjected to moving 36k lbs GCVW down the road, and the cooling system would boil over at low speeds necessitated by climbing steep grades, and not getting a 100+ mph breeze blowing through the radiators keeping the engine temp under control. All of which would lead to overheating, and likely damaging the engine.

You and others who stated that modern trucks are far more capable than the old versions, are exactly right.

Here's an example of a modern trucks capability, albeit unintentionally overloaded in this case. That kind of weight would've killed my old '95, at least the transmission, in short order. The transmission in it had trouble even when never towing at it's maximum of 12.8k lbs.

 

[ATex7239]

Vehicles are getting bigger and more capable but also more expensive to go along with it. A base model 2500 work truck is still ~ $70,000. If you are not using it for work and making $1,200 payments on it then maybe a touch of machismo is driving your decision making here.

 

[TiGeo]

Vehicles are getting bigger and more capable but also more expensive to go along with it. A base model 2500 work truck is still ~ $70,000. If you are not using it for work and making $1,200 payments on it then maybe a touch of machismo is driving your decision making here.

The amount of daily HD trucks by office workers in the lot where I work is staggering. I had to drive a modern Chevy 2500 a few years ago on a trip for a buddy. No thanks, I'll take a car or a 1/2 ton.

 

[spasm3]

.

 

[spasm3]

Vehicles are getting bigger and more capable but also more expensive to go along with it. A base model 2500 work truck is still ~ $70,000. If you are not using it for work and making $1,200 payments on it then maybe a touch of machismo is driving your decision making here.

The amount of daily HD trucks by office workers in the lot where I work is staggering. I had to drive a modern Chevy 2500 a few years ago on a trip for a buddy. No thanks, I'll take a car or a 1/2 ton.

I really dont worry about why people drive what they drive.

 

[TiGeo]

I really dont worry about why people drive what they drive.

I don't either - just an observation but there are downsides for others on the road to drive vehicles like this. But yes, if you want a $1200 car payment to drive a $70K HD truck to the grocery store for whatever reason....'MERICA!