Water pressure

[JHZR2]

We have city water and can't be more than half to a mile away from the towers. There are wells (municipal) all around town.

We have poor water pressure. I think it is somewhat our house, but it is something else too... Our kitchen is really slow, as is our shower. Our upstairs bathroom sink is pretty good.

After doing a plumbing project sometime back and seeing the junk in the pipe, we installed a whole house filter. Pressure was poor before, didn't really change after.

However, after just a short time, not even 5k gallons (1/6 the filters rated life), they go from white wound (I use carbon filters, not the pleated ones, so I can remove chlorine), to this:

Any time I shut the main supply to the house off, I get significant brown junk in the water from all taps. I've cleaned the strainers/aerators on the faucets, no help...

We did have a water main break down the street sometime back. Good hole and crack in the pipe. Since then it seems to have gotten a little worse...

Any ideas? Is this indication that my main line is shot? The water folks said when they were fixing the main that the actual pipe, which was 6", was filled with deposits that it probably is down to 3-4" ID. Wonder if that means that mine is similar...

How tough/expensive is it to run a new feeder from the street? Our house isn't more than 20' from the curb.

Any ideas about the brown junk and our pressure issues?

Thanks!

 

[tom slick]

You have flow issues, not pressure problems. Sounds to me like your supply as well as the pipes in your house are very rusty on the inside.

 

[crinkles]

Flow issues cause pressure issues. gunk in pipe = bigger pressure drop.

 

[Mr Nice]

How old is your home ?

 

[JHZR2]

ca. 1925

I know there is gunk in the pipes. That will effect friction factor and thus add a certain amount of drop. I get that. The issues are the following as far as I see it:

-I have a LOT of brown gunk coming in from the municipal supply.

-I know I have gunk in my pipes already.

-I know pressure dropped somewhat since the watermain repair. Anything related to that would have gotten caught in the whole house filter unless it got caught upstream at the shutoff valves (ball valve inside so I doubt it) or the water meter.

So (1) how do I remediate the gunk in my pipes to whatever extent possible, and, (2) do I take it up with the town to go after my main supply given the brown junk coming in from that?

Thanks!

 

[RH+G]

U might have a problem with the water pipe coming off the main.

I had that problem where the pipe coming into the house was clogged with a buildup of sediments. It got to the point if one person on the in the house was using water everyone else would just get air.

WHen the plumber came he said the house main pipe that connects out to the steet was clogged. They had to dig it out and replace it. This was the original water pipe for the house and the house was around as old as urs. I think it was a 3 inch pipe that when they took out had about a .5 inch hole in the middle which water was going thru. After that got replaced water flow and pressure went up and the water got cleaner.

If that is the original pipe that was built with the house and u are seeing alot of brown more than likely that can be the problem. The city even came out and replaced the water meters thinking that it might be causing the low pressure.

 

[JHZR2]

Yeah makes sense. Im thinking that is exactly what is the case.

I assume the whole front yard gets dug up?

 

[tom slick]

The fact that you have flow issues in the kitchen and shower but the upstairs bathroom is okay tells me that your house's pipes have the biggest issues. You may be getting junk from the supply but it's probably not causing differences in flow from one room to the next.

Take a sample from the faucet nearest to where the water enters your property/house and before your filter, that may be an outside faucet. If it has junk then it's the supply, if it's clean then your house's pipes are the culprit.

You could try shutting off the main water supply and completely draining your house. That would cause somewhat of a backflush and maybe remove some blockages.

I had rusty water and flow issues. I had to repipe the house, replacing the steel pipes with copper. That made a difference with flow issues between rooms in the house. Then I replaced the main pipe (sometimes called the "lateral") coming into the house, which was the main culprit. The main pipe had so much build up that it had about a 1/4" path through a pipe that started out at 1".

 

[mechanicx]

Not a plumber but I agree. It's most likely that the problem is more the plumbing in the house than the main feed line. Although the "lateral" is probably an issue too. Smaller pipes being more prone to clogging than the main line. I bet if some of the pipes in the house were opened there would be signs of a lot of clogging.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

That's part of the "charm" of living in an older home.

You've got a number of things working against you.

That main looks significantly undersized by current standards. I'm not sure what code is in your area, but around here when the rural water company put in our mains they were 24 inch pipes to feed about 30 homes. Yours is about 6", and with all the deposits it's at about 4" to feed how many homes?

I'm assuming that main was probably put in somewhere around 70 or 80 years ago-back then there was no demand from showers, second bathrooms, washing machines, dishwashers and lawn watering. Now you have more demand from a system that was barely adequate when it was new.

It is safe to assume that the main leading up to your home is nearly as constricted as the one in the street, along with the plumbing in your home.

While you can try to increase the flow by doing some replacement work, you've got a lot of things working against you and I have doubts that you'll ever see good quality flow and pressure until that main in the street is replaced. You probably also have a lot of clogging and garbage in the faucets themselves-if you remove an aerator you'll probably find plenty of deposits in it.

Short of replacing the plumbing in the home there's no magic bullet that will remove the deposits in your current plumbing. You and try to take it up with your water supplier or city council, but unless a lot of area neighbors complain I suspect it will be an exercise in futility.

 

[Papa Bear]

I recently had the water feed to our old house replaced, it was an old galvanized iron pipe and was very rusted and restricted inside.
Guy dug a hole at the street where the shut-off is and another hole by the foundation of the house where the line entered. He cut the old pipe at both ends and fed a small cable through the pipe from end to end. At the foundation end he attached a gizmo that looked like an arrow head to the cable and attached the new plastic pipe to the backside of the arrowhead. He then hooked the cable at the street end to his backhoe and began to drive slowly away... the arrowhead sliced open the old pipe and pulled the new plastic pipe right through the old pipe to the street. He hooked the new pipe up to the street valve and through the foundation to the meter, filled the 2 holes and he was done. Pretty neat installation .

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
The fact that you have flow issues in the kitchen and shower but the upstairs bathroom is okay tells me that your house's pipes have the biggest issues. You may be getting junk from the supply but it's probably not causing differences in flow from one room to the next.

Take a sample from the faucet nearest to where the water enters your property/house and before your filter, that may be an outside faucet. If it has junk then it's the supply, if it's clean then your house's pipes are the culprit.

You could try shutting off the main water supply and completely draining your house. That would cause somewhat of a backflush and maybe remove some blockages.

I had rusty water and flow issues. I had to repipe the house, replacing the steel pipes with copper. That made a difference with flow issues between rooms in the house. Then I replaced the main pipe (sometimes called the "lateral") coming into the house, which was the main culprit. The main pipe had so much build up that it had about a 1/4" path through a pipe that started out at 1".


The whole house filter I showed is right past the water meter. That silt and dirt is what is coming in from the street... right off the main feeder from the street. There is no home line between the home entry and the filter.

So what you see is a good sample of what is coming into the house.

Now, Ive cut and unsoldered pipes at different spots in the water distribution. There is a layer of sludge in them, a film less than 1mm thick. It is brown solids and definitely makes a muddy mess if you stick a finger in the pipe. The 1/2" copper is definitely not clogged or heavily closed down based upon the spots where Ive cut into it.

Ive drained the house for certain things before. Ive also just killed pressure. On either occasion, when the taps are first turned on, a good deal of brown water comes out before it runs clear, so there is dirt in the pipes, I just dont think it is terrible or that the whole mess is from within the house considering what gets caught in the entry whole house filter...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
That main looks significantly undersized by current standards. I'm not sure what code is in your area, but around here when the rural water company put in our mains they were 24 inch pipes to feed about 30 homes. Yours is about 6", and with all the deposits it's at about 4" to feed how many homes?

It is safe to assume that the main leading up to your home is nearly as constricted as the one in the street, along with the plumbing in your home.

While you can try to increase the flow by doing some replacement work, you've got a lot of things working against you and I have doubts that you'll ever see good quality flow and pressure until that main in the street is replaced. You probably also have a lot of clogging and garbage in the faucets themselves-if you remove an aerator you'll probably find plenty of deposits in it.


It is 6". Ours feeds just the street, and isnt even looped around (apparently some streets have a loop/bypass. This was a consideration when they fixed the main, as they said that any junk in the line may not flush through. However, we are not at the end of the line. There are maybe 12 homes that this line feeds.

It is the constriction from the street in that bothers me. I'd be happy with a 4" pipe feeding a fully open 1" or 3/4" pipe, whatever the feeder is. Id imagine that will give us some better flow, particularly if the demand is low on the street.

Ive cleaned all aerators. There has never been any signs of junk in them. Pressure/flow is the same running with them off.

So I assume to replace the line from the street, the entire yard has to get ripped up. For a home 20-ft from the street, how much $$$ do you think this is? I assume the town will do the outer half, from the main to some point on the feeder line, right?

 

[crinkles]

you can try pigging all lines and have council do theirs. if pigging can get rid of the scale.

 

[MNgopher]

I'd agree that since you have good flow in some places in the house, but not in others, you need to focus on the internal pluming in your house and not the mains feeding the house. It certainly sounds like a case of either a blockage of some sort or something not being up to size and making even a minor blockage more noticeable.

I wouldn't focus on the main into the house without ensuring that there is no internal issue first. If you initiate a repair of the outside water line, you are for sure responsible for the work in your yard, and if nothing is wrong with the portion after the service to the main, you'll be in the hook for that too.

Another poster noted the size of the water main pipe. If you have 24" water pipes, you are being serviced by a trunk line and not just a local water main. 6" is the usual minimum in this area, with 8, 10 and 12" fairly common. Higher sizes are usually found adjacent to the water treatment facilities (disinfection and other removals such as iron and maganese) and storage facilities water towers). For gravity sewer non-pressure pipe, 8" is the usual local size, so 24" for a pressure pipe is big!

Our area has issues with iron and manganese in the groundwater supply. This results in deposits in the supply piping. Most communities now treat to remove these impurities and that results in less need to "flush" lines to keep the suspension to minimum.

Dead end streets like yours where the water supply is not looped are prime areas for suspension to occur and should receive a hydrant flushing once a year to minimize issues.

 

[JHZR2]

I should be able to determine if I truly have good/bad flow in one spot or another by testing flowrate, right? pressure aside, either I get good or not so good flow. If I get good flow, I should get X GPM from the shower, sink, downstairs sink, hose, etc., right? If there is a big difference then I know I have an internal issue. Am I on the right track?

 

[rjundi]

How tough/expensive to run a new line? You have to call. You cannot perform this work yourself, you need a contractor who is certified in particularities of your city/town.

Have you attempted to put a pressure guage at the entry point in your home (past the water meter) in your home? This will tell you if it is an inside issue or outside. I cannot recall what the acceptable range is as its been 15yrs since I was a field civil engineer.

Once you figure out your pressure go from there to determine in or out problem.

I have poor flow issues also. However mine stem from undersizing of pipes. The entry pipe from well is 3/4"@60psi and then splits to 1/2" feeding a bathroom and 1/2" feeding two showers, kitchen sink, toilet, bath sink and dishwasher. I need to upsize this secondary line.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
How tough/expensive to run a new line? You have to call. You cannot perform this work yourself, you need a contractor who is certified in particularities of your city/town.

Have you attempted to put a pressure guage at the entry point in your home (past the water meter) in your home? This will tell you if it is an inside issue or outside. I cannot recall what the acceptable range is as its been 15yrs since I was a field civil engineer.

Once you figure out your pressure go from there to determine in or out problem.

I have poor flow issues also. However mine stem from undersizing of pipes. The entry pipe from well is 3/4"@60psi and then splits to 1/2" feeding a bathroom and 1/2" feeding two showers, kitchen sink, toilet, bath sink and dishwasher. I need to upsize this secondary line.


Im sure I could rig a gauge up. I guess I could get the parts from HD?

Mine is 3/4 in and 3/4 to the point where it branches to the users. At some point it has to neck down, but I think it does so a bit early... Maybe that will be my next project...

 

[rjundi]

HD/Lowes should have all the pieces needed.

Good luck.

 

[MNgopher]

You are on the right track. Residential water pressure is generally between 40 and 80 psi, though the static water pressure may be higher and reduced with a Pressure Relief Valve. I'd ask your water supplier what the static water pressure for your area is (it varies based on your location) - it is a normal question for them to answer.

As far as determining whether there is a restriction, it can be as simple as doing some measurements on flow volume (fill a 5 gallon bucket) and timing it. This writeup is for sprinkler systems, but you get the idea I think.

http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/sprinkler03.htm