Water in transmission oil

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To dispell misleading rubbish in this thread on fluids evaporation ............

Quotes from Wikipedia .

Evaporation is :
a )a type of vaporization of a liquid that occurs from the surface of a liquid into a gaseous phase that is not saturated with the evaporating substance.
b )The other type of vaporization is boiling, which is characterized by bubbles of saturated vapor forming in the liquid phase.
c )Steam produced in a boiler is another example of evaporation occurring in a saturated vapor phase.
d )Evaporation that occurs directly from the solid phase below the melting point, as commonly observed with ice at or below freezing or moth crystals (napthalene or paradichlorobenzene), is called sublimation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporation
 
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Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.


well if I leave spilled water on my counter top overnight, in the morning it is gone. And last I looked, my kitchen is only 70F over night. If an automatic has a vent, the moisture will come out. Now lets see the spin from the spin doctors...


Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick.

Since the average AT fluid temp across many transmission environments is 175F, no, it would not since you need to get above 212F to purge the system of any moisture. A high vapor pressure and temp would be needed to dispel any moisture.

This paragraph show true ignorance of the physics of water evaporation if nothing else.


+1

When ATF oil temperature rises, phenomenon of vaporisations (if water contamination exists) is definite to follow suit ..... from within transmission chamber ......moving out into the atmosphere .....
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: Whitewolf
The vent doesn't make any difference because, as MolaKule pointed out, the fluid will not get hot enough to expel the water in that way.
The other point that we were trying to make is that water in the fluid causes degradation way before is is detectable by visual appearance.
I just hope that the OP is taking notice of what we are saying instead of all the other misleading rubbish that is being posted.


well if I leave spilled water on my counter top overnight, in the morning it is gone. And last I looked, my kitchen is only 70F over night. If an automatic has a vent, the moisture will come out. Now lets see the spin from the spin doctors...


Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Would not the moisture just vaporize when the ATF got hot and two, would it not readily evap thru the dipstick.

Since the average AT fluid temp across many transmission environments is 175F, no, it would not since you need to get above 212F to purge the system of any moisture. A high vapor pressure and temp would be needed to dispel any moisture.

This paragraph show true ignorance of the physics of water evaporation if nothing else.


+1

When ATF oil temperature rises, phenomenon of vaporisations (if water contamination exists) is definite to follow suit ..... from within transmission chamber ......moving out into the atmosphere .....




What happens to a person who short hops the car? It takes my transmission 15 miles on the highway to reach 165-167F. So far the warmest I've seen the ATF is 172F [October-Dec, NY], that was after a 50 mile drive.
 
What happens to a person who short hops the car? It takes my transmission 15 miles on the highway to reach 165-167F. So far the warmest I've seen the ATF is 172F, and that was after a 50 mile drive. [/quote]

same thing, the water evaporates....just takes a few days longer.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10

What happens to a person who short hops the car? It takes my transmission 15 miles on the highway to reach 165-167F. So far the warmest I've seen the ATF is 172F, and that was after a 50 mile drive.


same thing, the water evaporates....just takes a few days longer. [/quote]

Thanks. Will it evaporate at 115-120F? Which is the highest it gets short tripping it.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Thanks. Will it evaporate at 115-120F? Which is the highest it gets short tripping it.


Edit to add: I realize water will evaporate at room temps slowly, but take my Jeep for example, the dipstick I have in it is [censored] near water tight. Any water that collects there will drip right back into the fill tube and run down into the pan again. Food for thought, I have no dog in the fight.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Thanks. Will it evaporate at 115-120F? Which is the highest it gets short tripping it.


Edit to add: I realize water will evaporate at room temps slowly, but take my Jeep for example, the dipstick I have in it is [censored] near water tight. Any water that collects there will drip right back into the fill tube and run down into the pan again. Food for thought, I have no dog in the fight.


Who know how fast it will evaporate. As far as your dipstick, I would get it fixed, and soon.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10

What happens to a person who short hops the car? It takes my transmission 15 miles on the highway to reach 165-167F. So far the warmest I've seen the ATF is 172F, and that was after a 50 mile drive.

same thing, the water evaporates....just takes a few days longer.


What happens if the water reacts with the additive package and/or damages the clutch adhesive before the transmission gets warm the first time?

Ed
 
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: philipp10

What happens to a person who short hops the car? It takes my transmission 15 miles on the highway to reach 165-167F. So far the warmest I've seen the ATF is 172F, and that was after a 50 mile drive.

same thing, the water evaporates....just takes a few days longer.


What happens if the water reacts with the additive package and/or damages the clutch adhesive before the transmission gets warm the first time?

Ed



I cannot answer that but in general, water does not react with petroleum products (they like to stay separate). Secondly, I highly doubt water would react with ANY adhesive.
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: philipp10

What happens to a person who short hops the car? It takes my transmission 15 miles on the highway to reach 165-167F. So far the warmest I've seen the ATF is 172F, and that was after a 50 mile drive.

same thing, the water evaporates....just takes a few days longer.


What happens if the water reacts with the additive package and/or damages the clutch adhesive before the transmission gets warm the first time?

Ed



I cannot answer that but in general, water does not react with petroleum products (they like to stay separate). Secondly, I highly doubt water would react with ANY adhesive.


I didn't think you could. I can. Now you no longer have to doubt. You can know how wrong you and zeng have been. You owe the OP an those in this thread who tried to give you the correct information an apology. Not for being wrong, for the horse's behind attitude you two exhibited in your replies.

If you still think that even 600 ppm (zeng claims this is perfectly safe) is not a problem and the proper course of action is to drive on, you are free to provide links to industry and scholarly publications that prove your point. Your doubting, guessing, thinking, surmising, positing, or believing is not going to cut it.

http://papers.sae.org/961917/
Quote:
A bench scale apparatus and accelerated test protocol were developed to evaluate the effect of contamination of automatic transmission fluid by mg/kg levels of water on cellulose frictional clutch surfaces. The testing indicated that water added at levels as low as 600 mg/kg migrated to the surface of untreated paper frictionals and contributed to loss of the paper coating and erratic torque transfer properties.


http://www.mistertransmission.com/water-in-the-transmission
Quote:
It doesn't take much--less than an ounce of water can cause problems. Fortunately, if you address the issue quickly, the hard part damage will be minimal, and you'll save a lot of money.

When water gets inside of an automatic transmission, the friction lining of the clutches absorbs it and dissolves the glue that attaches the material to the clutch plates. Usually, some amount of water will come out of suspension and form white gummy masses in various areas of the unit. This is why the unit cannot be flushed to remove all of the water. In addition, the presence of water will start rust forming on the ferrous metal parts throughout the unit. The amount of water and the length of time that it is inside of the unit will determine the extent of the damage, but the resolve to the problem will be to overhaul the transmission.


http://pij.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/06/30/1350650114542477.abstract
Quote:
The analysis of the tribotests showed that the friction increase for water contamination was a short-term effect and likely due to the interaction between polar surface active additives and water. Even though no significant change has been found for thermal degradation or in bulk properties of the lubricant, the initially changed action of the water soluble additives and generation of high friction resulted in a total deterioration of the clutch performance during long-term use.


http://pid.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/09/11/0954407012455145.abstract
Quote:
The greater reduction in the separator plates’ surface roughness (Ra) in a water contaminated clutch system compared to an uncontaminated one may be a reason for the change in friction. It is also shown that different water exposure time has no great impact on the change in friction level and the separator plates’ roughness.


Ed (one of the crickets)
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


Thanks. Will it evaporate at 115-120F? Which is the highest it gets short tripping it.


Edit to add: I realize water will evaporate at room temps slowly, but take my Jeep for example, the dipstick I have in it is [censored] near water tight. Any water that collects there will drip right back into the fill tube and run down into the pan again. Food for thought, I have no dog in the fight.


Who know how fast it will evaporate. As far as your dipstick, I would get it fixed, and soon.


No problems with the dipstick at all, Jeep seals them up pretty good to keep water out. Water doesn't belong it a transmission, and they know it.
wink.gif
 
and if a bit of common sense prevailed at the time this happened the o.p would have lost 4 qts of fluid.by dumping the pan.which is exactly what i would have done.
and i did just that when i grabbed a qt of 15w40 rather than dexron 3.
i have a drain plug.this pan dump greatly diluted the contamination.
and motor oil probably would have never hurt anything with less than 1 qt in an 11 qt system.it amounted to an early pan dump rather than in a few months.with water you pull the pan as the plug will prevent full drainage.and the water goes to the bottom.
 
Originally Posted By: kc8adu
and if a bit of common sense prevailed at the time this happened the o.p would have lost 4 qts of fluid.by dumping the pan.which is exactly what i would have done.
and i did just that when i grabbed a qt of 15w40 rather than dexron 3.
i have a drain plug.this pan dump greatly diluted the contamination.
and motor oil probably would have never hurt anything with less than 1 qt in an 11 qt system.it amounted to an early pan dump rather than in a few months.with water you pull the pan as the plug will prevent full drainage.and the water goes to the bottom.


Yeah, the prudent thing would be to just dump the pan right away.
 
Quotes from machinerylubrications.com :

A )States of Coexistence
Water can exist in oil in three states or phases.
A.1 )The first state, known as dissolved water, is characterized by individual water molecules dispersed throughout the oil.
Dissolved water in a lubricating oil is comparable to moisture in the air on a humid day - we know the water is there, but because it is dispersed molecule-by-molecule, it is too small to see. For this reason, an oil can contain a significant concentration of dissolved water with no visible indication of its presence. Most industrial oils such as hydraulic fluids, turbine oils, etc., can hold as much as 200 to 600 ppm of water (0.02 to 0.06 percent) in the dissolved state depending on the temperature and age of the oil, with aged oils capable of holding three to four times more water in the dissolved state than new oil.
(Note:This dissolved water/oil state is applicable to water contamination of transmission oil in OP's case , as it is cherry red pinkish in colour with hardly a teaspoon of water.)

A.2 )Once the amount of water has exceeded the maximum level for it to remain dissolved, the oil is saturated. At this point, the water is suspended in the oil in microscopic droplets known as an emulsion (the second state/stage).
This is similar to the formation of fog on a cool, spring day. In this case, the amount of moisture in the air exceeds the saturation point, resulting in a suspension of small droplets of moisture or fog.
In a lubricating oil, this “fog” is often referred to as haze with the oil said to be cloudy or hazy.
(Note:This is NOT applicable to OP's case, as the oil has NOT turned milky but remains cherry red pinkish as reported by OP.)

A.3 )The addition of more water to an emulsified oil/water mixture will lead to a separation of the two phases producing a layer of free water (note:the third state/stage) as well as free and/or emulsified oil. This is like rain falling when the amount of moisture in the air becomes excessive. For mineral oils and PAO synthetics whose specific gravity is less than 1.0, this free water layer is found on the bottom of tanks and sumps.
(Note:NOT applicable to OP)


B )The Effects of Water Contamination
In a lubricating system, the two most harmful phases are free and emulsified water.
(Note:NOT applicable to OP's case in hand i.e 'dissolved water')

Because the effects of free and emulsified water are more harmful compared to dissolved water, a general rule of thumb is to ensure that moisture levels remain well below the saturation point.
(Note:OP's oil is at first state/stage of 'dissolved water' contamination , and not at second and/or third stages which are more harmful than first stage.)


C )Measuring Water
In order to control moisture levels, one must be able to detect its presence. There are five basic test methods used to determine the moisture content of a lubricating oil. These methods range from a simple apparatus to a more complex chemical test or slightly more expensive percent saturation probe test ideal for on-site screening purposes. It may also include more advanced technology typically used in laboratories for precise determination of the water level in ppm....................................
Like all contaminants, it is important not only to recognize its presence, but also to take steps to control or eliminate the source of water ingression. If possible, water levels in all equipment should be kept below the saturation limit, with every effort made to keep moisture levels as low as possible. Whether you choose to install desiccant style breathers, improve seals, or to use a centrifugal filter or a large vacuum dehydration unit, reducing the level of water in all types of equipment can dramatically extend the life of the lubricant and the machine.
(Note:water contamination is a problem to be managed , and does not condemn OP's transmission oils outright and unconditionally as originally proposed to OP.)

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/192/water-contaminant-oil

OP,
Your case is at first stage 'dissolved water' contamination ...... and till now it hasn't gone into second stage of 'emulsified water'contamination (as would be evidenced from milky, strawberry milkshake and hazy colour ... which isn't true in your case) ...... and your are very far away from 'free water' contamination as would be evidenced from layer/phase separation............ this is NOT strong basis to condemn your oils.

What your read in above posts and internet on water contamination tends to refer to second and/or third stage water contamination .......... which isn't quite applicable to you (i.e 'dissolved water') as written above.
Whether it is first,second or third stage water contamination, again ,it does NOT condemn oils outright and unconditionally as previously proposed here.
 
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I go by the saying "when in doubt, change it out." The OP asked because he was concerned, and in doubt. If he was sure he wouldn't have asked. He was even blessed with the reply of an expert. I'm just curious, how much is a transmission for the OP's application? How much to swap out the fluid? Maybe those questions can help the OP with a decision.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I go by the saying "when in doubt, change it out." The OP asked because he was concerned, and in doubt. If he was sure he wouldn't have asked. He was even blessed with the reply of an expert. I'm just curious, how much is a transmission for the OP's application? How much to swap out the fluid? Maybe those questions can help the OP with a decision.


ok, I agree, swap it out. Now the question is, drainn and fill or full flush?
 
Originally Posted By: philipp10
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I go by the saying "when in doubt, change it out." The OP asked because he was concerned, and in doubt. If he was sure he wouldn't have asked. He was even blessed with the reply of an expert. I'm just curious, how much is a transmission for the OP's application? How much to swap out the fluid? Maybe those questions can help the OP with a decision.


ok, I agree, swap it out. Now the question is, drainn and fill or full flush?


If it was my car I'd do a line off fluid exchange.
 
Wow, zeng is still posting stuff after two weeks, and still does not understand any of the stuff he posts?

Edhackett posted some technically accurate info and yet zeng is jousting windmills again.

If I were the OP, I'd leave and never come back.

Quote:
If it was my car I'd do a line off fluid exchange.


That would be the preferred method but we were trying to save this guy some money in the short term.
 
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