VW to kill off petrol and diesel combustion cars from 2026

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Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Unless you lived in the UK in the 1950s, or have the frankly weird ability to visually detect sub-10 micron particulates, you'll know that modern diesels don't belch out clouds of black smoke.


I drove a mid-engined sports-car where my head was just about level with the typical diesel SUV's exhaust. I know what a cloud of black diesel smoke looks like. And smells like.

The hilarious part was that I'd mention this on the Internet, and diesel-heads would post just as you have, saying that wasn't possible because modern diesels were so clean they'd never do that, as though they expected me to ignore my own near-daily experience just because they said so.

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Her Majesty's Government, contrary to popular rumour, never once 'pushed' people to buy diesels over petrol engined cars.


Um, yes, it did. I was there. There was a ton of 'buy diesels they're so green' propaganda at the same time those diesel vehicles were filling my lungs with black smoke.

Oh, and even back then it was well known that diesel particulates were far more harmful than petrol exhaust. Several scientific studies showed just that.
 
I think you're one of those dolt-Right types who believes in anything that feeds your own set of personal of grievances (of which I suspect there are many).

Yes, diesel particulates are harmful which is why every European diesel that's come off the production line in the last decade has been fitted with a particulate trap. I remember being at Stuttgart talking to Daimler about them not long after the turn of the millennium so lots of cars were being fitted with traps long before they became mandatory. It's very hard to blow black smoke through a trap's ceramic matrix. At worst your going to see a transient 'blip' of smoke when you floor the accelerator & drop down a couple of gears. I see that from time to time & yes it's annoying but 'great belches of black smoke'? I think you're over-egging that particular pudding mate.

And 'green propaganda'? I think your willfully confusing legitimate product advertising with Dr Goebbels's dark arts. We don't do 'propaganda' here. Was that advertising deeply flawed? Well yes & the OEMs who lied have been punished accordingly.

And 'diesel exhaust being worse than gasoline exhaust'? Again you seem to just want to engage with half the argument. In terms of particulates & NOx, yes but if you factor in CO2, it's not at all straightforward that gasoline engine exhaust is less harmful than diesel exhaust. If it can be said that big European cities have a NOx problem, then North America has a CO2 problem, one which will increasing bite you on the bum unless you start to change some time soon.
 
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Originally Posted by SonofJoe
At worst your going to see a transient 'blip' of smoke when you floor the accelerator & drop down a couple of gears. I see that from time to time & yes it's annoying but 'great belches of black smoke'? I think you're over-egging that particular pudding mate.

In defence of that particular claim, and no, I'm not interested in slamming diesel or diesel emissions regimes, I wouldn't be surprised that it's more common in places that don't test for emissions. For example, in this province, we don't test for emissions on anything, much less diesel. So, if something fails and no one feels like fixing it, it'll stay that way. If someone intentionally modifies their emissions system, that's technically a violation of the law, but no one ever enforces it. The only "enforcement" might be if I were buying it off the lot used and I insisted the dealer get things back so no CEL is illuminated. Also, a commercial passenger vehicle (i.e. a taxi) won't pass annual inspection with a CEL. However, light duty diesel engines don't tend to be found in taxis here.
 
We don't have emission testing in NZ...cars sold here used to have all the emision stuff removed. And as SoJ says, black smoke from diesels has been gone for many years, and the smell too. I don't know what sort of diesels they have in the US to make clouds of black smoke and an evil smell, but it appears the rest of the world doesn't get that model.
 
An 'admiral' is in charge of a fleet of ships.

An 'admirable' goal is one that is worthy of admiration (eg by an admiring admiral).
 
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
At worst your going to see a transient 'blip' of smoke when you floor the accelerator & drop down a couple of gears. I see that from time to time & yes it's annoying but 'great belches of black smoke'? I think you're over-egging that particular pudding mate.


So I'm supposed to believe you rather than my own eyes (and nose)? Any time I was in slow-moving traffic with the roof off there was a good chance that I'd get a carful of belching black crap spewed out of the exhaust of the 'clean diesel' in front of me when it pulled away from a stop.

One of the benefits of moving to Canada is that the air in the cities is far less filthy because there are far less diesels.

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And 'green propaganda'? I think your willfully confusing legitimate product advertising with Dr Goebbels's dark arts. We don't do 'propaganda' here.


The push for 'clean' diesels was pure propaganda. They're not clean, and are now being banned or penalized in some cities and countries because they're far worse for the environment than petrol cars. This was well-known at the time, because we discussed it a lot online, but the government pushed them anyway. Just as they're pushing electric cars today.

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Was that advertising deeply flawed? Well yes & the OEMs who lied have been punished accordingly.


It wasn't the OEMs. It was the British government and media.

Anyone who was living in the UK back then could hardly fail to notice the government pushing 'clean diesel'. It's bizarre that you'd claim otherwise.

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And 'diesel exhaust being worse than gasoline exhaust'? Again you seem to just want to engage with half the argument. In terms of particulates & NOx, yes but if you factor in CO2, it's not at all straightforward that gasoline engine exhaust is less harmful than diesel exhaust.


Diesel exhaust actually kills people and causes long-term respiratory problems. It's a bit better today than it was in the 90s and 2000s, but the harm was well-documented back then and governments pushed for them anyway. Whereas CO2 is only harmful in computer models.
 
Originally Posted by wemay
VW to kill off petrol and diesel combustion cars from 2026

https://thedriven.io/2018/12/05/vw-to-kill-petrol-and-diesel-combustion-cars-from-2026/


Originally Posted by TheDriven
The current range of internal combustion engine cars being developed by Volkswagen AG brands will be the last ever, VW chief strategist Michael Jost said this week.

With an electrification strategy firmly in place for the group's stable of auto brands, VW is now ready to embrace the end of ICE age and is planning the last rollout of ICE platform cars in eight year's time.

The car maker, which works in seven-year development cycles, says its next cycle will begin in 2025 and will include electric vehicles only.

"Our colleagues are working on the last platform for vehicles that aren't CO2 neutral," Jost said at an industry conference near the company's HQ in Wolfsburg, Germany on Tuesday.



"We're gradually fading out combustion engines to the absolute minimum."

....


Fake news, sensational headline eye catching BS.
Nothing against the OP but he posted

"VW to kill off petrol and diesel combustion cars from 2026"

Nothing is further from the truth as the article is misleading. IN 2026 VW will direct all development resources to electric vechicles. One is led to believe they will not be producing gasoline or diesel vehicles and that is 100% false. In 2026 the vast majority of VW's being produced will still be gas or diesel.
 
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EV thoughts: Most of us consider the powerplant to grid to charger to battery, then from battery to motor to wheel,
conversion to have significant losses.

What's interesting is that we now know exactly how big the losses are, as the US Government publishes them!

EV Grid to wheel efficiency is 59% to 62%. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
Worldwide fuel burning powerplant average efficiency is 33%
USA powerplant fuel burning efficiency average is possibly as high as 38%
(yes, the best NG powerplants can achieve 60% in ideal conditions)
National grid losses are about 7.5% https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

We also know that EV's, driven normally in mixed driving consume about 340WH per mile. NOTE: Cold weather and heat use/Hot weather and AC use dramatically affect consumption. The 340wh per mile number is relatively accurate in overall use. Yes, some EV owners consume 280 wh per mile. They live in temperate climates, drive slow and don't use heat or AC.

Interestingly, it seems to take 1.6 gallons of fuel oil to make enough power to charge an EV to go 40 highway miles.
More interestingly, in some locations, (once fees and taxes are added in) EV's cost considerably more per mile than gas vehicles.

The Chevy Volt, which can be operated either as a EV or as a gas only vehicle costs 10c/mile (locally) on electric power and 5.3c/mile on gas.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
EV thoughts: Most of us consider the powerplant to grid to charger to battery, then from battery to motor to wheel,
conversion to have significant losses.

What's interesting is that we now know exactly how big the losses are, as the US Government publishes them!

EV Grid to wheel efficiency is 59% to 62%. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
Worldwide fuel burning powerplant average efficiency is 33%
USA powerplant fuel burning efficiency average is possibly as high as 38%
(yes, the best NG powerplants can achieve 60% in ideal conditions)
National grid losses are about 7.5% https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

We also know that EV's, driven normally in mixed driving consume about 340WH per mile. NOTE: Cold weather and heat use/Hot weather and AC use dramatically affect consumption. The 340wh per mile number is relatively accurate in overall use. Yes, some EV owners consume 280 wh per mile. They live in temperate climates, drive slow and don't use heat or AC.

Interestingly, it seems to take 1.6 gallons of fuel oil to make enough power to charge an EV to go 40 highway miles.
More interestingly, in some locations, (once fees and taxes are added in) EV's cost considerably more per mile than gas vehicles.

The Chevy Volt, which can be operated either as a EV or as a gas only vehicle costs 10c/mile (locally) on electric power and 5.3c/mile on gas.



I know some bloke in the power industry who has been posting similar for a half decade, and gets labelled a buggy whipper, and not imagining an electric utopia.
 
Originally Posted by Shannow

I know some bloke in the power industry who has been posting similar for a half decade, and gets labeled a buggy whipper, and not imagining an electric utopia.


Who ever that guy is, I'd buy him a beer or two
smile.gif
Seems like one of those people who stops to think about the situation with regard to energy, comes to an accurate conclusion and provides good information.

I wonder what his thoughts are on battery cost per KWH.......
smile.gif
As clearly a battery has a cost, a finite lifespan and just so many KWH can be extracted from it over it's life. We could break this down per KWH or per mile.....

The battery manufacturers do a lot of sandbagging, so the battery "seems" to retain it's capacity over a long period of time. But in reality, battery capacity is reduced slowly over both time and use. A Tesla owner I know recently got a replacement battery under warranty for his P85d. He's happy as they upgraded him to the 90KWH bat. But it seems obvious some Tesla owners are already having issues in heavy use.
 
Originally Posted by SonofJoe

For what it's worth, I'm not some raving, Greenpeace flag waving loony! I drive a car like everyone else. I have electrical appliances in my house like everyone else & I've just come back off holiday, where I got on a 747.

However I'm going to get my first granddaughter in a few weeks time. When she's my age, it's going to be 2080. Even if the scientists are half right, the climate then is going to be very different from what it is today. I reckon I owe it to her to 'do something' to mitigate the effects of global warming. If that means foregoing the big BMW in favour of my tiny Suzuki, on my reckoning, that's a price worth paying. Ditto turning unnecessary lights off or not whacking up the thermostat on the central heating when it's just as easy (& a bit more cosy) to throw a blanket over yourselves.



A 747? Pretty vintage these days.
I agree with you in that we should try to leave something for those generations that will follow us.
Nothing would encourage conservation like a hefty increase in the federal fuel tax. Fifty cents a gallon would probably be enough, although a dollar or so would bring more rapid and comprehensive change in vehicle choice.
People may consider carbon emissions and their influence in climate change to be a hoax but a hit to their wallets would have an impact.
Trucks would suddenly become declasse and economical sedans would rule.
A side benefit would be an enormous increase in the pool of funds available to rehabilitate our aging infrastructure.
Win-Win.
 
This thread is funny... 5 pages of naval gazing about VW's production plans and disbelief that it's transitioning away from the ICE, all based on some belief that .000005% of trips made worldwide are going to keep the ICE alive... Newsflash: no manufacturer cares that you "need" 600 mile range to go on vacation, and VW really doesn't care since the US is such a small part of its overall business.

VW is currently selling almost 10 times as many cars in China than in the US. Why on earth would they really care that much about the US market? China is moving to EV's, so this is where they're focusing their development.

Hey, I love the combustion engine as much as the next guy, but it's dying. It's a matter of "when", not "if". Ending new ICE development in 2026 seems about right, though.
 
The EV companies could do themselves a world of good if they standardized on modular, quick change battery technologies.

Why is the paradigm you need to charge the battery that is in the car, if it can be quickly swapped out with a fully charged one?

7 minutes in the rest area at the battery swap station and you are off and running.

Much like propane tanks, a separate certifying agency can track the health of the batteries and remove the ones with subpar performance.
 
Originally Posted by simple_gifts
The EV companies could do themselves a world of good if they standardized on modular, quick change battery technologies.

Why is the paradigm you need to charge the battery that is in the car, if it can be quickly swapped out with a fully charged one?

7 minutes in the rest area at the battery swap station and you are off and running.

Much like propane tanks, a separate certifying agency can track the health of the batteries and remove the ones with subpar performance.



I was just in a taxi in Wuxi that was part of a battery swap deal, so this is already pretty prevalent in China. The cab driver said he pays by the mile for battery usage when he swaps batteries.

I can definitely see it making sense for fleet use, but I also think there's a critical mass that's required for this to work that will make it tough for consumer vehicles. I also think it will be tough to have different car companies share battery platforms, since a better design will likely give a company a competitive advantage. I don't disagree with the sentiment, but I'm just not sure I see it happening across competing companies.
 
Originally Posted by Cujet
EV thoughts: Most of us consider the powerplant to grid to charger to battery, then from battery to motor to wheel,
conversion to have significant losses.

What's interesting is that we now know exactly how big the losses are, as the US Government publishes them!

EV Grid to wheel efficiency is 59% to 62%. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml
Worldwide fuel burning powerplant average efficiency is 33%
USA powerplant fuel burning efficiency average is possibly as high as 38%
(yes, the best NG powerplants can achieve 60% in ideal conditions)
National grid losses are about 7.5% https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

We also know that EV's, driven normally in mixed driving consume about 340WH per mile. NOTE: Cold weather and heat use/Hot weather and AC use dramatically affect consumption. The 340wh per mile number is relatively accurate in overall use. Yes, some EV owners consume 280 wh per mile. They live in temperate climates, drive slow and don't use heat or AC.

Interestingly, it seems to take 1.6 gallons of fuel oil to make enough power to charge an EV to go 40 highway miles.
More interestingly, in some locations, (once fees and taxes are added in) EV's cost considerably more per mile than gas vehicles.

The Chevy Volt, which can be operated either as a EV or as a gas only vehicle costs 10c/mile (locally) on electric power and 5.3c/mile on gas.



Best post in here and again, VW is not in any way abandoning the internal combustion engine.

Hmmm ... BUT in regards to the above, sounds like a good argument for gasoline BUT, its only half the story, your post points out the real cost (efficiency) of producing electricity to power a vehicle from start to finish but doesnt show the cost to produce a gallon of gasoline.

Good post though as it does point out to the end user/consumer, actual cost and sadly, government is using money form your paycheck and giving it to manufacturers to lower the purchase price of the electric vehicles.
 
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Originally Posted by simple_gifts
The EV companies could do themselves a world of good if they standardized on modular, quick change battery technologies.


Why would you want to pay $20k for a brand-new battery, then stop at a 'gas' station and swap it for a ten-year-old battery of unknown history?

At a minimum, swapping batteries would require a completely different business model for EV manufacturers. And a lot of trust from EV drivers, if they don't want to be stranded in inbred cannibal redneck country when their worn-out battery craps out.

Edit: BTW, there was a company doing exactly this a few years ago. They went bust.
 
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