VW at bottom again

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
Why just the focus on Buick? The JDP survey ranked MOST other brands above VW.


Did you troll up the demographics yet? I'm pretty sure VW is #1 youngest buyers above "MOST other brands".

Funny tale, my female cousin drove VWs her whole life. Rabitt, Fox, Jetta, Passat. All got 250k on Maine miles on them and held up fine with almost ZERO maintenance. She got the B5.5 Passat, an A4 clone w/ 1.8 turbo. Well...a high maintenance car she was unprepared for. She broke timing belts, sludged the engine twice and imo that car was a mess when she was done with it. Even an ATF service is >$350! If not for brand loyalty, she would have ranted against it, but instead they bought a V6 Passat Wagon!!!

So, imagine coming from a non-VW car to the Passat 1.8t (great reviews, displaced Camry for 4-5 years as CR #1 family sedan) and having all the OWNER NEGLECT problems and looking to blame VW for it. Kinda makes sense now, how people come to VW, a high maintenance car, and have "problems" that simple maintenance would have averted. I'm kinda sick of explaining this, but I'll do it again and again because you are my people.

Another issue that killed VW was the massive batch of bad Bremi coilpacks. Millions of defective CPs could not be replaced at once, so dealers replaced them one at a time as they failed. Tough going for the customers for sure, but does one bad part make a bad car? It affected some of my friends, but they mostly carried a $20 spare and could replace it in 2 minutes. Again, it comes down to owner knowledge and ability.

Anyone with VW demographics or crash tests they want to discuss?
Even better, VW resale value.

Yawn.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?

Here is why you are wrong:

1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?

2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.

BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.

So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.

Andy


Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Ever hear of the foreign trade deficit?


Why yes I have, in fact I have a degree in finance. But what does that have to do with buying a Chevy or Ford to avoid sending money overseas? You seem to think that contributing to the big 3's sales will benefit Americans, while buying imports cannot benefit Americans. I have read your posts over many threads and you have a habit of telling people that buying imports is unamerican (to paraphrase). I'm pointing out that you can enjoy the global economy yourself and take advantage of foreign profits, so that all those pennies don't 'stay in Japan', as you might argue.

In the end, buy the car you want and don't worry about where the corporate headquarters is located. Such an empty arguement. Not saying a trade deficit is wonderful, but you can't fight it by buying only certain brands of autos, as you suggest.


Andy
 
Originally Posted By: Steve S
A defect is a defect.

Disagree.


Originally Posted By: Steve S
Lee Iacocoa built overall poor quality.

Agree.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I also noticed that none of the import shills give the US automakers any benefit of the doubt in any case whatsoever. It's always comparing the Chevy assembled in Korea with the Honda assembled in Alabama. Look at the total # of jobs. All the foreign transplants combined employ less Americans than GM by itself. What about the Chevy assembled in Michigan with 90% US parts?


So what you are saying is that it's OK for you to name call, put others down, etc, and then complain about others that do that.

Originally Posted By: cousins
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Obviously, such behavior really can't be a problem with you since you engage in it during almost every topic like this.

I just wanted to point out your hypocrisy. You call OTHERS names, but complain if anyone else does.

Calling someone else a SHILL is putting them down.

I think such behavior is AGAINST the TOS here, but you seem to get away with it time and time again.

Name calling really will do little to win folks to your argument. In fact, for folks like me, it leads me to believe you are trying to shame folks to your side, or bully them, instead of using reason and logic.

It doesn't take much reason, logic or thought to call someone who disagrees with you a shill.

Sometimes you have good points, but you lose any ground when you engage in the name calling and double standard behavior you've demonstrated here.
 
PS, do you really mean what you say here either,

Originally Posted By: cousins
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Your arguments really seem to be against folks buying imports period.

Yet you excuse some imports because they are from the "right" countries.

If you ask most who buy Honda's or Toyota's they are not buying because they are made in Japan, they buy them because they think they are going to be a reliable car.

Like I've said before, the "Buy American" argument will resonate much louder with me when the "American" car makers practice what they are asking the consumer to do.

When they are buying American for the parts, and not importing electronics, engines and transmissions, not to mention entire cars, then perhaps they will have the standing to ask the consumer to do the same.

If it's good enough for GM, Ford and Chrysler to buy parts and assemblies overseas, then why should any consumer be berated for buying entire cars produced overseas?

So why not direct the "Buy American" lobbying towards the very carmakers who are getting parts, assemblies and entire cars from foreign factories?
 
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I also noticed that none of the import shills give the US automakers any benefit of the doubt in any case whatsoever. It's always comparing the Chevy assembled in Korea with the Honda assembled in Alabama. Look at the total # of jobs. All the foreign transplants combined employ less Americans than GM by itself. What about the Chevy assembled in Michigan with 90% US parts?


So what you are saying is that it's OK for you to name call, put others down, etc, and then complain about others that do that.

Originally Posted By: cousins
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Obviously, such behavior really can't be a problem with you since you engage in it during almost every topic like this.

I just wanted to point out your hypocrisy. You call OTHERS names, but complain if anyone else does.

Calling someone else a SHILL is putting them down.

I think such behavior is AGAINST the TOS here, but you seem to get away with it time and time again.

Name calling really will do little to win folks to your argument. In fact, for folks like me, it leads me to believe you are trying to shame folks to your side, or bully them, instead of using reason and logic.

It doesn't take much reason, logic or thought to call someone who disagrees with you a shill.

Sometimes you have good points, but you lose any ground when you engage in the name calling and double standard behavior you've demonstrated here.


Hey, I didn't start it. And look up the definition of shill. I think it pretty much describes their behavior, esp. when the import brands all have problems of their own they they don't want to admit. They're also quick to say "American cars are junk", etc.
 
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
Why just the focus on Buick? The JDP survey ranked MOST other brands above VW.


Did you troll up the demographics yet? I'm pretty sure VW is #1 youngest buyers above "MOST other brands".

Funny tale, my female cousin drove VWs her whole life. Rabitt, Fox, Jetta, Passat. All got 250k on Maine miles on them and held up fine with almost ZERO maintenance. She got the B5.5 Passat, an A4 clone w/ 1.8 turbo. Well...a high maintenance car she was unprepared for. She broke timing belts, sludged the engine twice and imo that car was a mess when she was done with it. Even an ATF service is >$350! If not for brand loyalty, she would have ranted against it, but instead they bought a V6 Passat Wagon!!!

So, imagine coming from a non-VW car to the Passat 1.8t (great reviews, displaced Camry for 4-5 years as CR #1 family sedan) and having all the OWNER NEGLECT problems and looking to blame VW for it. Kinda makes sense now, how people come to VW, a high maintenance car, and have "problems" that simple maintenance would have averted. I'm kinda sick of explaining this, but I'll do it again and again because you are my people.

Another issue that killed VW was the massive batch of bad Bremi coilpacks. Millions of defective CPs could not be replaced at once, so dealers replaced them one at a time as they failed. Tough going for the customers for sure, but does one bad part make a bad car? It affected some of my friends, but they mostly carried a $20 spare and could replace it in 2 minutes. Again, it comes down to owner knowledge and ability.

Anyone with VW demographics or crash tests they want to discuss?
Even better, VW resale value.

Yawn.


So the same can be said about GM intake manifold gaskets?
 
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?

Here is why you are wrong:

1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?

2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.

BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.

So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.

Andy


Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Ever hear of the foreign trade deficit?


Why yes I have, in fact I have a degree in finance. But what does that have to do with buying a Chevy or Ford to avoid sending money overseas? You seem to think that contributing to the big 3's sales will benefit Americans, while buying imports cannot benefit Americans. I have read your posts over many threads and you have a habit of telling people that buying imports is unamerican (to paraphrase). I'm pointing out that you can enjoy the global economy yourself and take advantage of foreign profits, so that all those pennies don't 'stay in Japan', as you might argue.

In the end, buy the car you want and don't worry about where the corporate headquarters is located. Such an empty arguement. Not saying a trade deficit is wonderful, but you can't fight it by buying only certain brands of autos, as you suggest.


Andy


Buying an import means spending tens of thousands of dollars at one time, so yes, it is very important that you consider where your money is going. If we want to keep up our standard of living here, that is. It doesn't take a finance major to figure that one out. So don't tell me my argument is lame when yours actually is. Look at the total numbers of Americans employed by GM, Ford, Chrysler and look at the total number of Americans employed by the transplants. Do you care if your job is outsourced? I would think if you're in finance it easily could be.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
http://levelfieldinstitute.org/files/scorecards/GM_v_Foreign.pdf


Obviously an unbiased source.

Quote:
Level Field was founded
by retirees of Ford, GM,
Chrysler, and the companies
that supply them
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?

Here is why you are wrong:

1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?

2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.

BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.

So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.

Andy


Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Ever hear of the foreign trade deficit?


Why yes I have, in fact I have a degree in finance. But what does that have to do with buying a Chevy or Ford to avoid sending money overseas? You seem to think that contributing to the big 3's sales will benefit Americans, while buying imports cannot benefit Americans. I have read your posts over many threads and you have a habit of telling people that buying imports is unamerican (to paraphrase). I'm pointing out that you can enjoy the global economy yourself and take advantage of foreign profits, so that all those pennies don't 'stay in Japan', as you might argue.

In the end, buy the car you want and don't worry about where the corporate headquarters is located. Such an empty arguement. Not saying a trade deficit is wonderful, but you can't fight it by buying only certain brands of autos, as you suggest.


Andy


Buying an import means spending tens of thousands of dollars at one time, so yes, it is very important that you consider where your money is going. If we want to keep up our standard of living here, that is. It doesn't take a finance major to figure that one out. So don't tell me my argument is lame when yours actually is. Look at the total numbers of Americans employed by GM, Ford, Chrysler and look at the total number of Americans employed by the transplants. Do you care if your job is outsourced? I would think if you're in finance it easily could be.
And this has to do with VW being on the bottom of the list ??
smirk2.gif
 
Let's see...

A 2009 2.5 non-turbo VW requires arcane VW 502.0-spec oil which some find it difficult to find!

IMHO, any Out of warranty VW + no "brother-in-law who works at the VW Dealership" = BIG TROUBLE!
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
The study depends on owner complaints. If you don't use any of the car's features and either don't know or don't care when something goes wrong, you're not going to complain and the problem won't show up in the survey.

Also, the study is done over a period of time (3 years). What if one car is driven a lot in that time, whereas another car is driven very little? You'd be comparing a car with 100k miles to a car with 50k miles.

In other words, the study has a bias in favor of cars with oblivious or indifferent owners who don't drive much. What segment of the market fits that description better than Buick owners?

Meanwhile, pretty much the opposite is true of VW. Clearly they have problems sometimes, but if you compared a VW to a Buick under equal conditions then I suspect they'd be a lot closer than this survey indicates.
That is also why Porsche does so well. Most are second or third cars that sit in the garage and are driven fewer than 10,000 miles per year.
 
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12

Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?

Here is why you are wrong:

1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?

2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.

BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.

So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.

Andy


Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Ever hear of the foreign trade deficit?


Why yes I have, in fact I have a degree in finance. But what does that have to do with buying a Chevy or Ford to avoid sending money overseas? You seem to think that contributing to the big 3's sales will benefit Americans, while buying imports cannot benefit Americans. I have read your posts over many threads and you have a habit of telling people that buying imports is unamerican (to paraphrase). I'm pointing out that you can enjoy the global economy yourself and take advantage of foreign profits, so that all those pennies don't 'stay in Japan', as you might argue.

In the end, buy the car you want and don't worry about where the corporate headquarters is located. Such an empty arguement. Not saying a trade deficit is wonderful, but you can't fight it by buying only certain brands of autos, as you suggest.


Andy


Buying an import means spending tens of thousands of dollars at one time, so yes, it is very important that you consider where your money is going. If we want to keep up our standard of living here, that is. It doesn't take a finance major to figure that one out. So don't tell me my argument is lame when yours actually is. Look at the total numbers of Americans employed by GM, Ford, Chrysler and look at the total number of Americans employed by the transplants. Do you care if your job is outsourced? I would think if you're in finance it easily could be.
And this has to do with VW being on the bottom of the list ??
smirk2.gif



Because some think the domestics deserve to be at the bottom of the list.
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
I also noticed that none of the import shills give the US automakers any benefit of the doubt in any case whatsoever. It's always comparing the Chevy assembled in Korea with the Honda assembled in Alabama. Look at the total # of jobs. All the foreign transplants combined employ less Americans than GM by itself. What about the Chevy assembled in Michigan with 90% US parts?


So what you are saying is that it's OK for you to name call, put others down, etc, and then complain about others that do that.

Originally Posted By: cousins
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.


Obviously, such behavior really can't be a problem with you since you engage in it during almost every topic like this.

I just wanted to point out your hypocrisy. You call OTHERS names, but complain if anyone else does.

Calling someone else a SHILL is putting them down.

I think such behavior is AGAINST the TOS here, but you seem to get away with it time and time again.

Name calling really will do little to win folks to your argument. In fact, for folks like me, it leads me to believe you are trying to shame folks to your side, or bully them, instead of using reason and logic.

It doesn't take much reason, logic or thought to call someone who disagrees with you a shill.

Sometimes you have good points, but you lose any ground when you engage in the name calling and double standard behavior you've demonstrated here.


Hey, I didn't start it.


Come on, my 10 year old daughter knows better that to try that argument. An adult should know that doesn't fly.



And look up the definition of shill.

[/quote]

Shill, a person who poses as a customer in order to decoy others into participating, as at a gambling house, auction, confidence game, etc.

That's the number one definition. So it's basically name calling. Instead of addressing their arugment, you perform a character assault. Trying to paint them in this light, that what they are doing is some sort of evil plot.

If you disagree, fine, address the points. But your argument is lost when you complain about them attacking, etc, and then do the same.

Originally Posted By: cousincletus


I think it pretty much describes their behavior, esp. when the import brands all have problems of their own they they don't want to admit. They're also quick to say "American cars are junk", etc.


I can't speak for others. I can only speak for myself and I know I've had far fewer problems with my 3 Toyota's, two now with over 200K miles than I've had with all the GM's, Fords, Chryslers and VW's I've owned. I also had pretty good luck with my one Mazda and one Honda I've owned as well. But I didn't have them as long and for as many miles, so I don't say much.

The thing is, until recently, your odds of having to repair a Toyota were far less than having to repair your typical GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.

Notice, it's clear that I'm NOT saying they don't need repairs. What I've said and what most studies have shown is they will need fewer repairs as a population than their competition.

For folks who value that, it's an important measure.

For those who want a Corvette or Dodge Viper, or Mustang, they are not going to value that.

I've been pretty clear about my experience with GM, and it doesn't compare well to Toyota.

I've been pretty clear that it's harder to win customers back that were lost to past bad experiences.

Folks can SAY anything, that the cars are better, etc. But a lost customer is the hardest one to win back.

And if all those who want to support GM have to offer is name calling and character assaults on those who have walked away from GM, then it's no wonder GM has fallen.

Why would I even consider to buy something that in the past has let me down, and it's supporters think I'm some sort of traitor for buying.

Like I've said, GM loses money on each car it sells right now. The most patriotic thing I can do is NOT to buy a car, because they'll lose money on that sale as well.

Buy domestic?

Finally, it's a subtle point, but I think it's important. Unless you own a dealership, you are not buying a car from GM, or Ford or any carmaker. You buy your car from the dealership. So any car on a dealers lot is ALREADY imported once the dealership has it in inventory.

So your complaint really isn't with those who buy the cars from the dealerships, but the dealerships themselves. They are the ones who actually buy the cars from the car maker.

So unless anyone is buying from an overseas dealership, the purchase of ANY car is supporting America. We are buying a product from a US business.

They may get their product overseas, or from a multi-national company.

Finally, we need to be careful about the whole buy American thing. Why? Because if the world adopted the same line of thinking, folks would stop buying Fords, Opals, Vauxhalls and Holdens in other countries because they don't want to send their hard earned money back to the USA.

Right now, that may be the only money helping these carmakers stay in the game.

So in the long run, protectionism is bad, not good. It may be even worse in the short term, if adopted by those who buy GM and Ford overseas.

Therefore, the last thing we should do is become protectionist when it comes to cars.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
PT1, I see what you're saying. It just occurs to me that JD Power & Associates doesn't really have to make an airtight case to be a powerful marketing force. They gather data, make charts, and give out awards, and make it all very visible and seem authoritative. I would think that would be enough for the industry to pay attention, so I don't think the fact that the industry follows them really means anything about the validity of their data.

If they really are as scientifically rigorous as I think you are suggesting, could you point me to some info about how they test and why? I'm really interested to see.


Rather than asking me to do your legwork why not send them an email and then post their response?
smirk2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
Sounds like the import lovers need to whine about everything domestic to justify their purchase and are still in denial that they are responsible for putting a lot of Americans out of a job.


I'm not responsible for putting anyone out of a job. Every time I see this kind of excuse for the US auto industry I want to buy another Toyota just to exercise my freedom of choice. But as to the OP. VW has had huge management issues for a long time. I think that is the root cause of their problems. Their designs are nice IMO but reliability is killing them.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: cousincletus

Because some think the domestics deserve to be at the bottom of the list.


How many new American cars have you bought in the past 10 years?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Bailes1992
It's new car time and I'm stumped.
2
Replies
29
Views
2K
tbm3fan
9
AMSOIL Signature Series 10w30, 6.8k mi; 2008 Chrysler 3.5L 123.9k mi - used oil analysis
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
4wd
Z
My 4L60E Transmission Service
Replies
3
Views
369
clinebarger
Hohn
My Sanrex Welder Experience(s)
Replies
0
Views
431
Hohn
shortyb
Rental review, Chevy Trax and Hyundai Elantra HEV
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
Pete in PA
Back
Top Bottom