It "came that way" from the factory... Q.C.

[SumpChump]

First off let me say that this is not a complaint post, life is too short. In that vein, I'm not looking for answers or comments of " you should have got a Mercedes"...not my point. This is a curiosity post about "quality in design and quality control.

Two years ago when I took home my brand new '13 Camry and then months later a brand new '13 Corolla ..... I washed and clayed and waxed them for fun. On the Camry I noticed a fair amount of "ripple" in some of the roofline crimps up near the beginning of the rear window mating the roof. (of course I know that metal has its limits to contortion) then I noticed a fairly significant amount of places on the Camry where there is a "body putty caulk" smeared at the points of main body parts that have been spot welds and to create a not so successful "smooth" surface they smear this "caulk" then the car is painted and clear coated. it is in mostly out of sight spots such as in the trunk taillight drip channel area. But it looks fairly unrefined.

On my Corolla by the rear driver door I saw that a "sand sized "grain" was painted into the finish like an actual dot of sand.

I happened upon some great videos of the Toyota factory in Kentucky and loved seeing all the views of how the body panels look without the bumper covers etc etc. But I also saw a "painstaking" supposedly quality control. Hands in gloves over every single edge, buffers, and so on. I know that the answer is "well, some get by" but I find that hard to believe. Bright lights, single minded body inspection.... the "just got by" is kinda an old fashioned excuse. Not saying I expect perfection but I spotted that "grain under the paint on the Corolla (Japan Made) very easily when washing it the first night of ownership.

As far as the unrefined Camry "caulk". Is that a new technique in body building on cars to just use A bunch 'o "caulk" at seams. Maybe it's part of consumer analysis that showed that cheapening the finishing of more out of sight areas yields 15cents more that is better used in seat cloth texture quality.

Wondering if anyone has insights on these issues in the industry.

also if you have experience with a particular consumer grade maker that "wows" you or is "behinds the times" in their manufacturing, let me know. I personally was amazed at how much more "hands off" the factory videos of the VW golf plant was versus the camry plant.

 

[surfstar]

I drive a 2005 Saturn. Talk about body gaps. A grain of sand would never be noticed.

You want a car or a hand-crafted piece of art? Some are both and surely cost as though.

 

[SumpChump]

Originally Posted By: surfstar
I drive a 2005 Saturn. Talk about body gaps.

Thanks for sharing about Saturn.

Originally Posted By: surfstar

You want a car or a hand-crafted piece of art? Some are both and surely cost as though.

..See my first two lines.

 

[Nick1994]

It's called seam sealer, used on all cars. We even have a tube in the body shop we use when replaci body panels (other than doors and fenders), such as bed sides, quarter panels, etc.

 

[Lapham3]

You're dealing with what you can see and most 'quality' isn't so easy to see=it's built in-the internals. Toyota had a nice run up in quality over the years and probably decided to do some 'value engineering' in order to pull more profit from high demand cars. Usually that intent is directed to cut quality in a way to reduce longevity more than something as noticable as new paint. When I was involved in these efforts it usually wasn't so easy to control how far you go-too little, the return is small-too much and components that used to work, now don't work well and angry customers. Wouldn't it be nice if a company went for higher quality and a decent profit and was content with that?-a new management team or direction comes along, gets greedy and they goof up the works.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

Great post! Coincidentally, I have some of the same questions.
Friday I got a new Ford C-Max, and yesterday stopped by a Ford dealer to ask them if they could align one of the doors since it sticks out a bit, doesn't really line up.

The young Ford service advisor (inexperienced?) said what he could do is take pictures with his phone and send to Ford for warranty approval. & he will call me soon. If I end up paying for the adjustment, I'm debating it with Ford cust serv.

I think the factory should have gotten it right. Not a huge deal, as I could just pay for fixing the Michigan factory's quality control issues. I keep imagining one of those stereotypical lazy Americans was sleeping on the job.

 

[dishdude]

It's a mass produced product with 3,000+ parts that is built to a price point. There isn't one that comes out of the factory that will be 100% perfect. Maybe the next shopping cart will hit it just right and knock the sand out of the paint.

IMO the plastic pieces on the interior seem to have the most imperfections.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: SumpChump
First off let me say that this is not a complaint post, life is too short. In that vein, I'm not looking for answers or comments of " you should have got a Mercedes"...not my point. This is a curiosity post about "quality in design and quality control.

Two years ago when I took home my brand new '13 Camry and then months later a brand new '13 Corolla ..... I washed and clayed and waxed them for fun. On the Camry I noticed a fair amount of "ripple" in some of the roofline crimps up near the beginning of the rear window mating the roof. (of course I know that metal has its limits to contortion) then I noticed a fairly significant amount of places on the Camry where there is a "body putty caulk" smeared at the points of main body parts that have been spot welds and to create a not so successful "smooth" surface they smear this "caulk" then the car is painted and clear coated. it is in mostly out of sight spots such as in the trunk taillight drip channel area. But it looks fairly unrefined.

On my Corolla by the rear driver door I saw that a "sand sized "grain" was painted into the finish like an actual dot of sand.

I happened upon some great videos of the Toyota factory in Kentucky and loved seeing all the views of how the body panels look without the bumper covers etc etc. But I also saw a "painstaking" supposedly quality control. Hands in gloves over every single edge, buffers, and so on. I know that the answer is "well, some get by" but I find that hard to believe. Bright lights, single minded body inspection.... the "just got by" is kinda an old fashioned excuse. Not saying I expect perfection but I spotted that "grain under the paint on the Corolla (Japan Made) very easily when washing it the first night of ownership.

As far as the unrefined Camry "caulk". Is that a new technique in body building on cars to just use A bunch 'o "caulk" at seams. Maybe it's part of consumer analysis that showed that cheapening the finishing of more out of sight areas yields 15cents more that is better used in seat cloth texture quality.

Wondering if anyone has insights on these issues in the industry.

also if you have experience with a particular consumer grade maker that "wows" you or is "behinds the times" in their manufacturing, let me know. I personally was amazed at how much more "hands off" the factory videos of the VW golf plant was versus the camry plant.


yes, the germans love their robots and cameras that never get tired and see and feel exactly the same way every single time. That is going to be more consistent "control" versus a human.

See the BMW plant, there are lots of bmw factory videos posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=libw1rV2McY

 

[Ducman]

Maybe you should've bought a couple of Lexus cars instead.

The reality is, that to varying degrees there are defects of some sort with just about every panel on any car if you look closely enough from the right angle with the right light depending on how lucky/unlucky you are.
Some defects you will forget about noticing until you rediscover them 12 months or more later during another major detail.

All of the car manufacturers do their best(up to a price point) to make the finish on the cars as visually appealing as possible in every respect for the consumer.
But a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere.

Perhaps you could start to manufacture cars on your own and show them how it should be done.
Alternately build a bridge and get a grip on life, then start putting your hand a lot deeper into your pocket and buy a luxury brand car next time.
That would give one a lot more leverage over the matter with the manufacturer.
Then you can take it up with them at the point of handover.

For example, some of the high end Italian cars are quite magnificent and it would be hard to find defects in the paint from factory.
My Maserati is actually quite superb. Any defects are quickly forgotten when I stand back and look at the car with a goofy look on my face after a big detail session.
Otherwise any defects found could potentially be explained as part of the unique and natural beauty of the car, or even as a feature of the model depending on your point of view.

Good luck.

 

[Ethan1]

SumpChump, if seam sealer or dirt under the paint bothers you, you should just take it into the dealer and have it fixed under warranty.

If anybody has a black car, take a look under your hood or the bottoms of your doors. There might be no almost paint at all, because black cars get the thinnest coat of paint. (This is referred to in bodyshops and by engineers alike as a "p1sscoat".) When we got our first new Colorado in at the Chevy dealer, I ran right over and opened the door to look inside. Before I could admire the interior, I noticed that THE ENTIRE DOOR JAMBS OF THIS BLACK TRUCK WERE STILL GREEN. There was NO paint over the e-coat. On a 2015 car!

 

[raytseng]

Sump/Ducman, have you heard of the concept of Concours d'Elegance
or a concours car?

It's a carshow contest where each and every car participant is expected to be BETTER than factory new.

It's already a given that the factory standard is not perfect, and just a starting point for a concours car, where flawlessness is expected.

Then again, you also end up never actually drive your concours car other than to move it, as it is for show only.

 

[Nate1979]

We're these imperfections/damage fixed by the dealer prior to putting on the lot?

 

[Ducman]

God forbid we should actually drive these cars.

Think of the stone chips in and around the wheel arches and on the front of the vehicle.

I would have to tip the car upside down and clean the entire underbody after each and every drive(never in the wet).
Then I would notice the inconsistency in the weld quality on the exhaust, and irregularities with the finish on the Brake callipers and between the different callipers.

 

[Ducman]

They won't tell you about that one.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: lubricatosaurus
Great post! Coincidentally, I have some of the same questions.
Friday I got a new Ford C-Max, and yesterday stopped by a Ford dealer to ask them if they could align one of the doors since it sticks out a bit, doesn't really line up.

The young Ford service advisor (inexperienced?) said what he could do is take pictures with his phone and send to Ford for warranty approval. & he will call me soon. If I end up paying for the adjustment, I'm debating it with Ford cust serv.

I think the factory should have gotten it right. Not a huge deal, as I could just pay for fixing the Michigan factory's quality control issues. I keep imagining one of those stereotypical lazy Americans was sleeping on the job.



That should be an adjustment you can do yourself. A little body shop trick is to loosen the striker plate (usually 2 torx bolts) just enough so you can move it by hand but not too easily. Roll down the window of the door you're working on (so you can grab it easily) and shut the door on the loosened striker plate. You can now move it around a little as well as the striker plate adjusts itself just by the door closing on it. Now carefully open the door and tighten up the bolts.

 

[Ducman]

Originally Posted By: Ethan1
SumpChump, if seam sealer or dirt under the paint bothers you, you should just take it into the dealer and have it fixed under warranty.

If anybody has a black car, take a look under your hood or the bottoms of your doors. There might be no almost paint at all, because black cars get the thinnest coat of paint. (This is referred to in bodyshops and by engineers alike as a "p1sscoat".) When we got our first new Colorado in at the Chevy dealer, I ran right over and opened the door to look inside. Before I could admire the interior, I noticed that THE ENTIRE DOOR JAMBS OF THIS BLACK TRUCK WERE STILL GREEN. There was NO paint over the e-coat. On a 2015 car!


IMO, the factory paint is probably the best value paint you will ever have on the vehicle.
Anything else that's likely to get sprayed on the broadly visible exterior, in all likely hood will not be as good or as consistent as the factory paint for a number of reasons.

For the Op's issues, it's best to do a microscopic correction on the defects where appropriate. Then get over the rest of it and sleep well at night.

 

[Ducman]

What you propose raises the risk of chafing the paint when the striker moves.

Better to tape the outer edge and bottom edge of the striker as a reference point, then loosen the striker off and reposition/adjust it.
Retighten the striker and check alignment with the closed door. Remove the tape when satisfied it's the best you can get it.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

There is NO question that the super high quality of many Japanese cars (and some German cars) during the early 80s-mid 90s is long gone now. It is true (I was there to witness the quality back then) that many of those models back then were incredible in their hard part quality (components that make the car work) and even body hardware, and other parts was outstanding and the attention detail was incredible (even Civic, and Corolla). Instead today you get lots of gadgets and so called technology which adds no real value to the vehicles and the quality I mentioned before is far far lower but the prices are outrageously higher, even when accounting for inflation.

I think many vehicles today are overpriced, are of lower quality, durability and especially longevity potential.

I see nothing out there today that makes me want to spend my hard earned money on new models, no matter what category or price class they are in.

 

[asand1]

Everyone has an ****, and every car has seam sealer, get over it.

 

[Andrew1972]

Hit or miss with consumer grade cars. I have heard folks complain mostly about Honda.

Some colors definitely show blemish more.