Kestas
Staff member
As Lee Iacocca once said about defects-per-car ratings... "Are the defects a crooked ashtray or a broken crankshaft?". Some of these surveys that report defects-per-car don't weigh the severity of the defects.
VW at bottom again
- Thread starter rshaw125
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Actually the BEST indicator of quality is the manufacturer's own warranty data. This shows every issue fixed and it is tabulated. I review warranty data on a monthly basis and we react to the issues by making needed changes either thru engineering, vendors, or actual plant assembly processes.
Warranty data is real, some of these surveys are less than ideal in my opinion - Consumer Reports being the worst of them.
Warranty data is real, some of these surveys are less than ideal in my opinion - Consumer Reports being the worst of them.
I'd be interested to see data on how many replacement parts are sold for a given vehicle vs. how many of them are still registered. Autozone and Advance Auto both have this information, it's how they know what to stock in a given store.
Older people complain less, that's a fact. I bet you could take the same group of cars and rank again by owner age and have a similar order. Younger people are harder on cars too. Is anyone going to dispute that?
Why don't you take a look at safety rankings and crash repair costs and get back to me.
The Buick owners I know are all old farts and have no idea what a good car is and no idea what is going on with their own cars either.
Funny, my BiL is about my age but retared when it comes to cars. He had a PkAve that blew an engine at 80k from IMG leak, he has no clue what caused it though...went and got another exact same car. None of his cars ever made it past 100k. He'll still say Buick is great out of insecurity. It's the psycological effect of not wanting to know you made a bad decision. (can't remember what that's called) Press him on the issue and he will retreat faster than a French tank. Still never owned an import and decries our cars (Hondas!) as (hold on)..."expensive to fix"! That's because some dirt-dumb mechanic told him that 20 years ago, not because he has a experience with them.
Our cars have 150-250k and look/drive better than his. Many had nothing more than exhaust, brakes and mounts. I think fuel pumps on the older VWs are a problem as well as control arms on the newer ones.
AS far as VWs, Mom's 1998 Passat has been awesome. It had nothing more than tune-ups, exhaust, secondary injection pump. That's IT! Interior is like new, paint is very good, ride is like being inside a cinderblock. Oh, the odo was replaced at 60k too.
These studies show what is wrong w/American cars. Mfgs "build to suit" buyers who are clueless and the cycle re-enforces itself. Ask these old farts (if they can hear you) how many import brands they have owned to compare to the 'ol Buick, lol. That alone should tell you everything. How valid is their opinion if they never owned a good car, err...import car.
It's common knowledge when people move from domestic appliances to imports the RARELY go back....and it has nothing to do w/"perception".
Why don't you take a look at safety rankings and crash repair costs and get back to me.
The Buick owners I know are all old farts and have no idea what a good car is and no idea what is going on with their own cars either.
Funny, my BiL is about my age but retared when it comes to cars. He had a PkAve that blew an engine at 80k from IMG leak, he has no clue what caused it though...went and got another exact same car. None of his cars ever made it past 100k. He'll still say Buick is great out of insecurity. It's the psycological effect of not wanting to know you made a bad decision. (can't remember what that's called) Press him on the issue and he will retreat faster than a French tank. Still never owned an import and decries our cars (Hondas!) as (hold on)..."expensive to fix"! That's because some dirt-dumb mechanic told him that 20 years ago, not because he has a experience with them.
Our cars have 150-250k and look/drive better than his. Many had nothing more than exhaust, brakes and mounts. I think fuel pumps on the older VWs are a problem as well as control arms on the newer ones.
AS far as VWs, Mom's 1998 Passat has been awesome. It had nothing more than tune-ups, exhaust, secondary injection pump. That's IT! Interior is like new, paint is very good, ride is like being inside a cinderblock. Oh, the odo was replaced at 60k too.
These studies show what is wrong w/American cars. Mfgs "build to suit" buyers who are clueless and the cycle re-enforces itself. Ask these old farts (if they can hear you) how many import brands they have owned to compare to the 'ol Buick, lol. That alone should tell you everything. How valid is their opinion if they never owned a good car, err...import car.
It's common knowledge when people move from domestic appliances to imports the RARELY go back....and it has nothing to do w/"perception".
For fun, lets compare that 10 year old Buick to a 10 y/o Volvo S70 in ALL respects. Any objective measure would find the Buick a lacking piece of junk. Peeling paint, boat handling, poor braking, rancid engines, victorian interiors, ill-fitting everthing....YEAH....they are GREAT!!!
I can't get past the miserable door handles.
I can't get past the miserable door handles.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
btw- the Buick owners I know are all old farts and have no idea what a good car is and no idea what is going on with their own cars.
That sounds like most of the Toyota owners around here. Since there pretty much aren't any Buicks on the road around here, the old farts have to drive something.
btw- the Buick owners I know are all old farts and have no idea what a good car is and no idea what is going on with their own cars.
That sounds like most of the Toyota owners around here. Since there pretty much aren't any Buicks on the road around here, the old farts have to drive something.
They want something that mirrors the Buick experience.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Actually the BEST indicator of quality is the manufacturer's own warranty data. This shows every issue fixed and it is tabulated. I review warranty data on a monthly basis and we react to the issues by making needed changes either thru engineering, vendors, or actual plant assembly processes.
Warranty data is real, some of these surveys are less than ideal in my opinion - Consumer Reports being the worst of them.
Warranty data is very questionable...
Manufacturers warranty data only shows you the problems that the dealer and manufacture admit are problems. When the dealer blows a customer off with "they all do that" or some other lame excuse it doesn't get in the database as a problem.
I care more about what the customers think than I do about what GM or other car companies think about their products.
Actually the BEST indicator of quality is the manufacturer's own warranty data. This shows every issue fixed and it is tabulated. I review warranty data on a monthly basis and we react to the issues by making needed changes either thru engineering, vendors, or actual plant assembly processes.
Warranty data is real, some of these surveys are less than ideal in my opinion - Consumer Reports being the worst of them.
Warranty data is very questionable...
Manufacturers warranty data only shows you the problems that the dealer and manufacture admit are problems. When the dealer blows a customer off with "they all do that" or some other lame excuse it doesn't get in the database as a problem.
I care more about what the customers think than I do about what GM or other car companies think about their products.
Sounds like the import lovers need to whine about everything domestic to justify their purchase and are still in denial that they are responsible for putting a lot of Americans out of a job. When Buick makes high reliability scores, they whine that it's bogus information. When their precious import has problems and expensive maintenance, they duck the issue. It's always justification of their sending money overseas by putting down someone else who doesn't, calling him stupid, ignorant, clueless, etc. I have driven American cars for over 25 years and can tell you firsthand they are very reliable and none (except an 87 Ford Ranger) have given me any unexpected problems other than maintenance.
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Do you apply the same standard to those who put down others because they CHOOSE to buy "import cars?"
You know, cars like the Made in Mexico Ford Fusion, or the Made in Canada Panther platform Fords.
Just what exactly is an import car anyway? Is the Honda built in OH more of an import than the Ford built in Mexico, or the Pontiac built in Australia, or the Saturn built in Germany?
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Do you apply the same standard to those who put down others because they CHOOSE to buy "import cars?"
You know, cars like the Made in Mexico Ford Fusion, or the Made in Canada Panther platform Fords.
Just what exactly is an import car anyway? Is the Honda built in OH more of an import than the Ford built in Mexico, or the Pontiac built in Australia, or the Saturn built in Germany?
I forgot the Chevy's built in Korea, or the Hyundai's built in Alabama...
My Accord = Ohio.
Final assembly is only part of the complete picture. We've been through this time and time again. FWIW I don't (and the parts origin sticker) consider Canada to be "foreign", as they buy a lot of American cars up there. Compare that to what the Japanese buy of our products.
I also noticed that none of the import shills give the US automakers any benefit of the doubt in any case whatsoever. It's always comparing the Chevy assembled in Korea with the Honda assembled in Alabama. Look at the total # of jobs. All the foreign transplants combined employ less Americans than GM by itself. What about the Chevy assembled in Michigan with 90% US parts?
Why just the focus on Buick? The JDP survey ranked MOST other brands above VW.
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?
Here is why you are wrong:
1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?
2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.
BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.
So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.
Andy
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Here is why you are wrong:
1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?
2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.
BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.
So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.
Andy
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Originally Posted By: 82DMC12
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?
Here is why you are wrong:
1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?
2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.
BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.
So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.
Andy
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Ever hear of the foreign trade deficit?
Why do you always bring up this lame arguement about 'sending money overseas'?
Here is why you are wrong:
1. You can have a piece of the action by purchasing ADR's. Now it's YOUR MONEY TOO! What makes you think profits only stay in Japan or Korea or whereever? They take that money and buy much more complex and expensive USA-built goods, so why do you care who the customer is? The US still makes plenty of big-ticket stuff, we just don't make a lot of consumer-level garbage like DVD players and ipods anymore. Why not let the Chinese make it if it costs you less in the store? Don't you want to live better?
2. GM and Chrysler are basically owned by the Chinese now anyway, since the government bailout is mostly financed by Chinese willing to buy our debt. So go ahead, buy a Chevy and find out who gets the 'profits' in the end.
BTW I bought a Subaru in 2007 that was built in Indiana. So some US workers got paid with my money and lived to work another day.
So now, please never use that arguement/excuse ever again because it is untrue and indefensible.
Andy
Originally Posted By: cousincletus
BTW my issue isn't with people who buy imports in and of itself, but those who justify their purchase by putting someone else down for their decision not to send their money overseas.
Ever hear of the foreign trade deficit?
Originally Posted By: Kestas
As Lee Iacocca once said about defects-per-car ratings... "Are the defects a crooked ashtray or a broken crankshaft?". Some of these surveys that report defects-per-car don't weigh the severity of the defects.
A defect is a defect. Lee Iacocoa built overall poor quality.
As Lee Iacocca once said about defects-per-car ratings... "Are the defects a crooked ashtray or a broken crankshaft?". Some of these surveys that report defects-per-car don't weigh the severity of the defects.
A defect is a defect. Lee Iacocoa built overall poor quality.
There was a map I just saw that showed all of the assembly plants from Ford/GM/Chrysler. Very few were in Canada or Mexico, however Canada and Mexico buy a lot of American cars, so I have no problem building them there.
Japan however, doesn't buy any American cars. The rest of the world does though.
Japan however, doesn't buy any American cars. The rest of the world does though.
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