Viscosity and Wear
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QuadDriver, I'm not sure where to begin...
1. There is no speed limit on the Autobahn unless there are limits posted (It's always been like that).
2. "Autobahn" does not mean "motorway." Tranlsate again.
3. There is not, as you imply, just one Autobahn, but many. Look at a road map of Germany. Autobahnen are labeled with "A" plus a number (i.e. "A93")
4. The speed limit für Landstraßen ("overland" roads" = highways) has been 100km/h for a very long time. "Bundestraßen" (Something akin to a US highway with either 1 or 2 lanes) have a speed limit of 120 km/h. Bundesstraßen are labeled with "B"plus a number (i.e. "B20")
5. In areas that have a lot of deer, the Autobahn is commonly fenced in with high mesh wire fences. In years of driving on the Autobahn I've rarely seen anything bigger that a dead hare on the Autobahn.
6. You bet that most cars will get better mileage than a 6.0 Tahoe - thanks for pointing THAT out.
7. I don't know who tried telling you that the average Joe (Wouldn't that be Hans?
I get the impression you've never even been there and your misconceptions are founded in hearsay. Had you been there, you'd know that you cannot compare an Autobahn to a highway in the desert. Lanes on the Autobahn are a lot wider compared to US freeways, the surface is better maintained and the cars that people drive are made for high speed (suspension, brakes,tires - there are almost NO all-season tires, lights).
How do I come to make my claims? Simple, I go to Germany on average once or twice a year. I've lived there for 10 years in the '80s and '90s, so I think I know what I'm talking about. I hope this clears up some of your misconceptions.
PS: Are you sure your friend is from Beverstadt in Germany and not from Beverstadt in the Netherlands? The Dutch always like to drive fast in Germany, because they mustn't do it at home.
There was one other, somewhat less obvious, but very "important" reason for reinstating the speed limits in Montana: money. Issuing tickets to speeding drivers is a relatively big source of income to Police departments in many states.
While on the subject of speed limits, or lack thereof, in the US, in my opinion, most drivers need to be seriously re-educated before this is allowed. How often do you see a person going 55mph in the left-most lane on a US highway with a much higher speed limit? That's an accident waiting to happen if you have other drivers zooming by on the roads with no speed limits. Most Germans/Europeans know how to properly use multi-lane roads. I wish everyone in the US did, too.
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Yes, Pete, the locals see speeders often as cash cows that require milking.
Good point on driver education, too. I'm reminded of what I read in a car magazine regarding the lift of the speed limit in Montana. A Montana cop was quoted as calling it "It's Audi Duty Time!" when referring to high speed accidents. That was of course regarding untrained drivers running their Quattros off the Montana highways.
Good point on driver education, too. I'm reminded of what I read in a car magazine regarding the lift of the speed limit in Montana. A Montana cop was quoted as calling it "It's Audi Duty Time!" when referring to high speed accidents. That was of course regarding untrained drivers running their Quattros off the Montana highways.
An excerpt from The German Way by Hyde Flippo
Passport Books (a division of NTC/Contemporary Publishing)
ISBN 0-8442-2513-4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The German Autobahn has taken on an almost legendary mystique. The reality is a little different than the legend. The myth of no speed limits is countered by the fact that Tempolimits are a fact of life on most of Germany's highways, and traffic jams are common. Signs suggesting a recommended speed limit of 130 km/h (80 mph) are posted along most autobahns, while urban sections and a few dangerous stretches sometimes have posted speed limits as "low" as 100 km/h (62 mph). The fact is that Germany's autobahn system is an extensive network of limited-access freeways that can usually provide a driver with a speedy route from city to city.
apparently she and her friends take the suggestion seriously.
question: what are the 10 best selling cars in europe and LCVs in europe as of 2000?.
cars: 1) VW golf, 2)renault megane 3)peugeot 206 4) fiat punto 5) opel astra 6) ford focus 7) renault clio 8) opel corsa 9) citroen xsara 10) bmw 3 series (finally one that COULD be performance oriented, (depending on how many 1.8L engines were ordered as opped to the 3.3L in the US) and only 330K were sold overall)
LCVs: 1) renault kangoo 2)ford transit 3) mercedes sprinter 4) vw transport 5) fiat ducato 2 6) citroen berlingo 7) iveco daily 8) renault master 2 9) mercedes vito 10) renault clio.
now....have I *YET* convinced you that the really cool hipo cars are as just a rarity over there than they are here?
(btw, of note, of the top 10 selling vehicles in the USA (adding cars+"lcvs") most are trucks/suvs)
perf tires and suspensions on a carerra? sure. on a golf? nah, nuttin a malibu does not have. ps if you can find 2002 data, I would appreciat e a link
actually many are also roller bearings (not as good as needle, better than sleeve) and as far as I have to look is simply opening up a case....
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quote:Originally posted by moribundman:
QuadDriver, I'm not sure where to begin...
An excerpt from The German Way by Hyde Flippo
Passport Books (a division of NTC/Contemporary Publishing)
ISBN 0-8442-2513-4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The German Autobahn has taken on an almost legendary mystique. The reality is a little different than the legend. The myth of no speed limits is countered by the fact that Tempolimits are a fact of life on most of Germany's highways, and traffic jams are common. Signs suggesting a recommended speed limit of 130 km/h (80 mph) are posted along most autobahns, while urban sections and a few dangerous stretches sometimes have posted speed limits as "low" as 100 km/h (62 mph). The fact is that Germany's autobahn system is an extensive network of limited-access freeways that can usually provide a driver with a speedy route from city to city.
QuadDriver I DID say that 130kp/h was a recommendation. It's not mandatory. You will NOT get a speeding ticket just for going faster than 130kp/h on the Autobahn, unless a speed limit is posted. Read again - I said THE SAME THING as your source! I also said that there CAN be speed limits posted on stretches of the Autobahn (Even variable speed limits, which depend on fog and traffic, for example).
apparently she and her friends take the suggestion seriously.
That may well be, and it may be good choice, depending on where she lives , what her driving skills are, and what she drives.
question: what are the 10 best selling cars in europe and LCVs in europe as of 2000?.
cars: 1) VW golf, 2)renault megane 3)peugeot 206 4) fiat punto 5) opel astra 6) ford focus 7) renault clio 8) opel corsa 9) citroen xsara 10) bmw 3 series (finally one that COULD be performance oriented, (depending on how many 1.8L engines were ordered as opped to the 3.3L in the US) and only 330K were sold overall)
I guess a GTI or a 3 series doesn't count as performance oriented in your book?
LCVs: 1) renault kangoo 2)ford transit 3) mercedes sprinter 4) vw transport 5) fiat ducato 2 6) citroen berlingo 7) iveco daily 8) renault master 2 9) mercedes vito 10) renault clio.
now....have I *YET* convinced you that the really cool hipo cars are as just a rarity over there than they are here?
Why do you want to convince me of something that wasn't even the main point of contention? You don't have to convince me of anything. I know what I see with my own eyes on the streets over there and here.
(btw, of note, of the top 10 selling vehicles in the USA (adding cars+"lcvs") most are trucks/suvs)
perf tires and suspensions on a carerra? sure. on a golf? nah, nuttin a malibu does not have.
You will hardly find ANY car with all season tires in Germany. People have usually two sets of tires. Summer tires (not necessrily high performance tires) for the warmer seasons, and winter tires for the snowy/icy season.
ps if you can find 2002 data, I would appreciat e a link
I'm sure you can find a link yourself. I've got nothing to prove here. I know what I know and what I've seen.
QuadDriver, I'm not sure where to begin...
An excerpt from The German Way by Hyde Flippo
Passport Books (a division of NTC/Contemporary Publishing)
ISBN 0-8442-2513-4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The German Autobahn has taken on an almost legendary mystique. The reality is a little different than the legend. The myth of no speed limits is countered by the fact that Tempolimits are a fact of life on most of Germany's highways, and traffic jams are common. Signs suggesting a recommended speed limit of 130 km/h (80 mph) are posted along most autobahns, while urban sections and a few dangerous stretches sometimes have posted speed limits as "low" as 100 km/h (62 mph). The fact is that Germany's autobahn system is an extensive network of limited-access freeways that can usually provide a driver with a speedy route from city to city.
QuadDriver I DID say that 130kp/h was a recommendation. It's not mandatory. You will NOT get a speeding ticket just for going faster than 130kp/h on the Autobahn, unless a speed limit is posted. Read again - I said THE SAME THING as your source! I also said that there CAN be speed limits posted on stretches of the Autobahn (Even variable speed limits, which depend on fog and traffic, for example).
apparently she and her friends take the suggestion seriously.
That may well be, and it may be good choice, depending on where she lives , what her driving skills are, and what she drives.
question: what are the 10 best selling cars in europe and LCVs in europe as of 2000?.
cars: 1) VW golf, 2)renault megane 3)peugeot 206 4) fiat punto 5) opel astra 6) ford focus 7) renault clio 8) opel corsa 9) citroen xsara 10) bmw 3 series (finally one that COULD be performance oriented, (depending on how many 1.8L engines were ordered as opped to the 3.3L in the US) and only 330K were sold overall)
I guess a GTI or a 3 series doesn't count as performance oriented in your book?
LCVs: 1) renault kangoo 2)ford transit 3) mercedes sprinter 4) vw transport 5) fiat ducato 2 6) citroen berlingo 7) iveco daily 8) renault master 2 9) mercedes vito 10) renault clio.
now....have I *YET* convinced you that the really cool hipo cars are as just a rarity over there than they are here?
Why do you want to convince me of something that wasn't even the main point of contention? You don't have to convince me of anything. I know what I see with my own eyes on the streets over there and here.
(btw, of note, of the top 10 selling vehicles in the USA (adding cars+"lcvs") most are trucks/suvs)
perf tires and suspensions on a carerra? sure. on a golf? nah, nuttin a malibu does not have.
You will hardly find ANY car with all season tires in Germany. People have usually two sets of tires. Summer tires (not necessrily high performance tires) for the warmer seasons, and winter tires for the snowy/icy season.
ps if you can find 2002 data, I would appreciat e a link
I'm sure you can find a link yourself. I've got nothing to prove here. I know what I know and what I've seen.
ti tiresome to repost everything and Im pressed for time, but while all GTIs are golfs, not all golfs are GTIS (and about half are sold with a rather small diesel, NOT the TDI in the jetta either) and the same with the 3 series, while 2.5 and 3.3L engines are popular here, the 1.8 is there - that $4 a gallon has something to do with it.
btw - she drives a volvo wagon, 4 cyl, no turbo. stick. and if she got her license in germany according to law, then she has more skill than most of the racers on dirt tracks, and certainly way more than the sorry azz drivers ed we provide here (dont even get me started on that! ;-)
mebbe not you, but you admit in this thread there are people who maintain that porsche and AMG and lambo are as common there as an explorer is here.
and if they dont have A/S tires over there, then what is bridgestone and pirelli selling with A/S ratings?
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Quad, you know, I don't care about the statistics that you find somewhere. I've said what I had to say, the facts speak for themselves. Been there, done that (Yes, I have a German license, too, made in Germany, not a traded-in one). Even the European cars with "small" engines go fast, which has certain implications.
As for M+S tires in Germany, I've never seen one there, and I was never interested in them either - neither there, nor here. I'm sure you can find info online, if you care.
Maybe there's a German lurking here, who'd like to chime in. I'm tired of arguing with a random stranger who's made up his mind. It doesn't matter to me. I'll agree with you on driver's ed, or rather the lack thereof, in the US, though. Other than that I'm done with this topic.
As for M+S tires in Germany, I've never seen one there, and I was never interested in them either - neither there, nor here. I'm sure you can find info online, if you care.
Maybe there's a German lurking here, who'd like to chime in. I'm tired of arguing with a random stranger who's made up his mind. It doesn't matter to me. I'll agree with you on driver's ed, or rather the lack thereof, in the US, though. Other than that I'm done with this topic.
I dont understand....you first told me that there were a plethora of big merc, porsche engines on the road - what ever a plethora is. Then you told me there were what 50% hipo luxury cars and you TOLD ME to 'look up the numbers' I did, and they backed what I first stated - the europeans drive just as mundane cars as we do, 'cept they have 1/3 the engine size. then you tell me you see what you saw (which I dont doubt) and we got onto the topic of A/S tires somehow not existing , and when I mentioned the european advertising from 2 companies that do biz there, you go off on me again... whats up with that? No, I have not been to germany. That is neither a badge of honor nor a dirge of shame. however, being a 'car guy' one who does not just go 'coool man a chevelle heh heh', I follow them worldwide, memorize silly things like shop manuals and tsbs and occasionally take them apart and reassemble them - sometimes even using ALL the parts! Somewhere else around I here I threw out the name 'lupo' and from the responses I get giving grief, Id bet that WITHOUT everyone firing up a google seach or equiv, no one would know what the heck I was talking about. You said the facts speak for themselves. Well yes, I agree wholeheartedly about that.quote:
Originally posted by moribundman:
Quad, you know, I don't care about the statistics that you find somewhere. I've said what I had to say, the facts speak for themselves. Been there, done that (Yes, I have a German license, too, made in Germany, not a traded-in one). Even the European cars with "small" engines go fast, which has certain implications.
As for M+S tires in Germany, I've never seen one there, and I was never interested in them either - neither there, nor here. I'm sure you can find info online, if you care.
Maybe there's a German lurking here, who'd like to chime in. I'm tired of arguing with a random stranger who's made up his mind. It doesn't matter to me. I'll agree with you on driver's ed, or rather the lack thereof, in the US, though. Other than that I'm done with this topic.
A couple statistics I do know of that sort of give a perspective of what Europeans manufacture and buy there, as opposed to what is shipped and sold here are these:
A few years back Car & Driver showed a statistic that in 1998, 75% of all BMW M3s were sold in the USA. The M3 isn't exactly a high volume car either. They specifically pointed out that that figure included all versions of the M3. Which was the 240hp US version and the ~325 hp version made for most other markets. I read an article in Autoweek I believe, stating the reason that BMW sold the 240hp engine in the US was to keep the prices in the mid $30K range instead of about $50K for the higher hp engine. Looking at the sales figures, it looks like they had to do that so they could sell enough M3s to make it a viably profitable 3 series model.
It's also very well know that about half of the cars Porsche sells worldwide are sold in the USA. Some years it's slightly more than half. So...
With all the people in Europe and all those fabulous roads, you'd think they'd buy more of the high hp cars with traits they find so desireable. But from what I can tell, the moral of the story is; if it's really nice and made in Europe, Europeans probably can't afford it.
A few years back Car & Driver showed a statistic that in 1998, 75% of all BMW M3s were sold in the USA. The M3 isn't exactly a high volume car either. They specifically pointed out that that figure included all versions of the M3. Which was the 240hp US version and the ~325 hp version made for most other markets. I read an article in Autoweek I believe, stating the reason that BMW sold the 240hp engine in the US was to keep the prices in the mid $30K range instead of about $50K for the higher hp engine. Looking at the sales figures, it looks like they had to do that so they could sell enough M3s to make it a viably profitable 3 series model.
It's also very well know that about half of the cars Porsche sells worldwide are sold in the USA. Some years it's slightly more than half. So...
With all the people in Europe and all those fabulous roads, you'd think they'd buy more of the high hp cars with traits they find so desireable. But from what I can tell, the moral of the story is; if it's really nice and made in Europe, Europeans probably can't afford it.
What do you mean by this?
MolaKule
Staff member
"It seems that all of us still really have varying opinions on this subject. I'm just curious if most people subscribe to the idea that a thicker oil is better for engine wear? The Steve Bergin article makes you think otherwise. What is exactly is the relationship between viscosity and wear? I don't think we have the answer yet but Bob and others have pointed out that thinner oils with greater flow might be as good or better."
Back to the subject, less the nitpicking by Quaddrriver.
Increasing the viscosity increases the film thickness of the hydrodynamic film separating the metal surfaces. Increasing the viscosity by one SAE weight, increases the film thickness over the previous weight by about 0.75 to 1.5 um. In other words, going from an SAE 20 to an SAE 30 gives you about 0.75 to 1.5 um increase in film thickness.
However, increasing the viscosity results in larger "viscous drag," which means that more hp is being used to overrcome this drag, resulting in an increased heating of the oil film, and a subsequent loss in hp, and fuel economy.
Many engine manufacturers, especially GM, are using special capacitive sensors to measure oil film between dynamically rotating and sliding parts, so the actual oil film is measurable and quantifiable.
Today's oils are generally thinner oils which use improved barrier additives to combat wear and extreme pressure galling when the hydrodynamic film is ruptured and the lubrication resorts to the "boundary lubrication" regime.
The oil's specified viscosity is a function of operating temperature, engine clearances, and expected additive package.
Terry's recommendation is right on. Start out with a 30 weight viscosity (I prefere 10W30's for daily drivers), and then experiment using a used oil analysis (unless you're in a warranty situation with specific limits).
Back to the subject, less the nitpicking by Quaddrriver.
Increasing the viscosity increases the film thickness of the hydrodynamic film separating the metal surfaces. Increasing the viscosity by one SAE weight, increases the film thickness over the previous weight by about 0.75 to 1.5 um. In other words, going from an SAE 20 to an SAE 30 gives you about 0.75 to 1.5 um increase in film thickness.
However, increasing the viscosity results in larger "viscous drag," which means that more hp is being used to overrcome this drag, resulting in an increased heating of the oil film, and a subsequent loss in hp, and fuel economy.
Many engine manufacturers, especially GM, are using special capacitive sensors to measure oil film between dynamically rotating and sliding parts, so the actual oil film is measurable and quantifiable.
Today's oils are generally thinner oils which use improved barrier additives to combat wear and extreme pressure galling when the hydrodynamic film is ruptured and the lubrication resorts to the "boundary lubrication" regime.
The oil's specified viscosity is a function of operating temperature, engine clearances, and expected additive package.
Terry's recommendation is right on. Start out with a 30 weight viscosity (I prefere 10W30's for daily drivers), and then experiment using a used oil analysis (unless you're in a warranty situation with specific limits).
I think we need more data. I recenly put in Castrol TWS 10-60 and the car simply runs more powerfully than ever. Runs right up to redline with so much more smoothness and refinement...oh, but that's not a trait of U.S. cars. Much better than Mobil 1 5w50 and Syntec 5-50. Guess the quality of lubricant shines through. Time will tell...I think fuel economy was not affected appreciably at all.
As far as viscosity and wear...why doesn't anyone mention the near zero wear with the UOA posted on the Camry using Castrol RS 10-50?? Compare this with high teen Fe measurements we see with 30 weights. And then compare them with the 0-30 German Syntec Patman posted last week. You still think the 30 weight is better? What about the 0? Why wasn't wear prevented during startup?
As far as Europe is concerned. Yes, not everyone drives S500's or 911's just like not everyone here drives STS's or Vettes. Gas is cheaper...there are more SUV's and trucks here. Engines are larger, but cheaper quality (GM pushrod) designed for torque (stop and go) as we have more low speed/city driving. Europe has more longer distance high speed driving. Trucks are not popular because they do not handle worth a darn. All those cars you mentioned, regardless of engine size can readily go 200kph all day while the "average" GM Cavalier is falling apart at 90 mph. Why do you think nobody outside the U.S. drives U.S. cars?
Interesting how BMW M3's are the best oil-related recent problem vehicle. First off, the problem was only in the U.S. cars...and it was with using the 5-30. Quit a change to the 10-60 no? Guess the thicker isn't better thing is false...they should have changed to 0-20. Recent Enzo Ferrari article says they use Shell Helix Synthetic 10-60. Why? 0-20 would give more hp.
Look, Rin-tin-tin oils are for U.S. destined cars and that's that. European's have somewhat been catching up with using the thinner oils, but not unless they are A3 rated...not Mobil 1 5w50. However, I've used these too and in the interest of a sludge free and better running engine I've needed to move up grades.
I'm not saying we should all use Ferrari oil in the average Cavalier, but there's a reason such lubricants are recommended for the higher-end products. But, to each his own...
As far as viscosity and wear...why doesn't anyone mention the near zero wear with the UOA posted on the Camry using Castrol RS 10-50?? Compare this with high teen Fe measurements we see with 30 weights. And then compare them with the 0-30 German Syntec Patman posted last week. You still think the 30 weight is better? What about the 0? Why wasn't wear prevented during startup?
As far as Europe is concerned. Yes, not everyone drives S500's or 911's just like not everyone here drives STS's or Vettes. Gas is cheaper...there are more SUV's and trucks here. Engines are larger, but cheaper quality (GM pushrod) designed for torque (stop and go) as we have more low speed/city driving. Europe has more longer distance high speed driving. Trucks are not popular because they do not handle worth a darn. All those cars you mentioned, regardless of engine size can readily go 200kph all day while the "average" GM Cavalier is falling apart at 90 mph. Why do you think nobody outside the U.S. drives U.S. cars?
Interesting how BMW M3's are the best oil-related recent problem vehicle. First off, the problem was only in the U.S. cars...and it was with using the 5-30. Quit a change to the 10-60 no? Guess the thicker isn't better thing is false...they should have changed to 0-20. Recent Enzo Ferrari article says they use Shell Helix Synthetic 10-60. Why? 0-20 would give more hp.
Look, Rin-tin-tin oils are for U.S. destined cars and that's that. European's have somewhat been catching up with using the thinner oils, but not unless they are A3 rated...not Mobil 1 5w50. However, I've used these too and in the interest of a sludge free and better running engine I've needed to move up grades.
I'm not saying we should all use Ferrari oil in the average Cavalier, but there's a reason such lubricants are recommended for the higher-end products. But, to each his own...
Patman
Staff member
Yes I do. Sure that 10w50 report was excellent, one of our top used oil analysis on here, however we've seen many similar reports from 30wt oils on here also.
And don't forget, there isn't a member on this site who has seen as many used oil analysis as Terry Dyson, and in his recent interview with Speedtalk he mentions that a 30wt oil is good for most of the cars on the road today.
I am still curious as to why those of you who claim that 50wt oils are so good, are so afraid to post a used oil analysis on it?
[ July 14, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
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