Well.....if patman's practice is so terrible, then why don't his winter UOA's show 5000 ppm of iron?
Ver 2 Mercruiser / ACPF1218 Oil Filter Study w/ Pore and Flow Data
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It depends on the engine too. I was amazed at how long it takes the oil to get to the rockers on a GM V8. Oh well, rockers don't require much lubrication anyway.
My Alfa Romeo engines would have oil running everywhere while turning the engine over 2 times by hand while measuring the valves clearances. That was with a cold engine (not winter) and 20W-50 Castrol GTX.
Ed
My Alfa Romeo engines would have oil running everywhere while turning the engine over 2 times by hand while measuring the valves clearances. That was with a cold engine (not winter) and 20W-50 Castrol GTX.
Ed
Non magnum small block mopars take a while to oil the rocker arms too. They have one oil feeder drilled thur the block fills up the rocker shaft. The oil holes on the cam that feed this gallery only line up once an engine revolution... The oil system was designed to keep oil going to mains and rods first, the oil the rockers.
Doesnt seem to cause a problem though. Rockers are designed to hold oil.
Dan
Doesnt seem to cause a problem though. Rockers are designed to hold oil.
Dan
Patman
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That's true, my last winter's UOA was with 10w30 Schaeffer oil, with my car parked outside all night long with no block heater used (I was too lazy to use it last year) and in a 4,400 mile interval here were the results:quote:
Originally posted by sbc350gearhead:
Well.....if patman's practice is so terrible, then why don't his winter UOA's show 5000 ppm of iron?
Iron-25
Lead-7.8
Al-6.2
Copper-3.3
Chromium-1.3
Then I did a 4800 mile interval from April to June and got the following results
Iron-21
Lead-11
Al-5.8
Copper-3.5
Chromium-1.0
Both runs were using an AC Delco air filter and a K&N oil filter.
So my winter UOA wasn't much different than my summer UOA, so obviously my driving habits are ok.
Also keep in mind that for the first minute I don't even touch the gas, I'm basically idling along at less than 5mph, so it's kind of like idling with no load on it anyways, I'm just not wasting time in my driveway.
It ticks me off seeing my neighbor two doors down who idles her new Toyota Matrix for at least 5-10min every morning, even if it's above 32F in the early spring she still sticks to that habit. I also used to work with a lady who started her Honda Accord 20min before leaving work, and would stick with that habit for the first few weeks of spring, I even saw her doing it on a day that was almost 70 degrees!
[ February 11, 2004, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]
Carl97ss, how long does it take for the oil pressure to come up after you do a cold start as measured by gauge or idiot light?
I thought for kicks I'd start the ol' car today, minus a valve cover, and take it to 2000 rpm's. The temperature this morning was 21 degrees F, close to the 20 degrees F the other morning. Car had sat outside for 13.5 hours.
Oil Started to appear at 24 seconds vs 38 seconds at the pushrod/roller rocker junction. At 32 seconds vs 58 seconds oil appeared at the tip of the rocker/valve stem and oil again appeared at the coil spring/ cylinder head seat. The Mrs. said oil pressure was a bit higher this time by maybe 2-3psi vs the @1000rpm idle.
Breaking down the rpms to engine revolutions, at 1000 rpm idle it took @633 engine revolutions for oil to appear at the pushrod/rocker. At 2000 rpm idle it took @ 800 ER's. For oil to get to the rocker/valve stem, 967 ER at 1000 rpm idle and 1066 ER at 2000 RPM idle.
food for thought perhaps...My feeling. If you start up and drive off with no to lite load for 60 seconds, you're ok. After that, common sense says to go easy till we build some heat into the engine, tranny and rear diff if you have one of those.
Oil Started to appear at 24 seconds vs 38 seconds at the pushrod/roller rocker junction. At 32 seconds vs 58 seconds oil appeared at the tip of the rocker/valve stem and oil again appeared at the coil spring/ cylinder head seat. The Mrs. said oil pressure was a bit higher this time by maybe 2-3psi vs the @1000rpm idle.
Breaking down the rpms to engine revolutions, at 1000 rpm idle it took @633 engine revolutions for oil to appear at the pushrod/rocker. At 2000 rpm idle it took @ 800 ER's. For oil to get to the rocker/valve stem, 967 ER at 1000 rpm idle and 1066 ER at 2000 RPM idle.
food for thought perhaps...My feeling. If you start up and drive off with no to lite load for 60 seconds, you're ok. After that, common sense says to go easy till we build some heat into the engine, tranny and rear diff if you have one of those.
Hey
maybe instead of nav screens the cars need a video camera inside the valve cover??!!!!
or a second oil press gage reading oil press at the rocker
maybe instead of nav screens the cars need a video camera inside the valve cover??!!!!
or a second oil press gage reading oil press at the rocker
good point: real science.
bad point: valvetrain does not equal the rest of the engine.
on designs like american pushrod V8s, the cylinder walls and cam/lifters are lubed purely from the rod side clearances. at idle there's very little oiling going on. this is why new engines are supposed to be run at 2k rpm for a while, that's the rpm where plenty of oil is getting to the lifters and cylinder walls.
on modified engines running solid roller cams, for instance, lots of idling spells death for the lifters. not enough oiling. the lifters and cams in these engines last longer when raced than when used on the street, generally.
just more to consider. i certainly applaud you for doing these experiments, and the results are very interesting.
also, i'm guessing OHC engines don't have this lag. the oil doesn't have to fill hydraulic lifter plunger cavities back against spring pressure before there's enough pressure to go up some pushrods, and the heads themselves are often topographically designed to trap pools of oil where the lobe sliding occurs.
-michael
bad point: valvetrain does not equal the rest of the engine.
on designs like american pushrod V8s, the cylinder walls and cam/lifters are lubed purely from the rod side clearances. at idle there's very little oiling going on. this is why new engines are supposed to be run at 2k rpm for a while, that's the rpm where plenty of oil is getting to the lifters and cylinder walls.
on modified engines running solid roller cams, for instance, lots of idling spells death for the lifters. not enough oiling. the lifters and cams in these engines last longer when raced than when used on the street, generally.
just more to consider. i certainly applaud you for doing these experiments, and the results are very interesting.
also, i'm guessing OHC engines don't have this lag. the oil doesn't have to fill hydraulic lifter plunger cavities back against spring pressure before there's enough pressure to go up some pushrods, and the heads themselves are often topographically designed to trap pools of oil where the lobe sliding occurs.
-michael
"The startup period is the time when the engine experiences the most wear. By accelerating it before the oil reaches the top of the engine cylinders -- five or more seconds depending on the vehicle -- you can do a considerable amount of damage and speed up engine wear."
http://www.shell.ca/code/motoring/tips/engines.html
http://www.shell.ca/code/motoring/tips/engines.html
From the above Shell site
Dave
I'll go with that.
Dave
I'm certainly not MECHANIC but,I've been inside of my engine, GM LT1, and as I recall the first place this engine sends oil to is up the back of the engine to the cam/lifters and another passage to the oil filter. If the oil is too thick, it quickly bypasses the filter to the front oil gallery....front of the cam and timing chain. Oil is splashed on the crank, rods pistons bottoms from the oil pan. Before oil showed up, in my little test, at the pushrod/roller junction, I could hear the lifters quiet down farely qickly. My guess is it took 5-7 seconds for them to quiet down. I would agree OHC engines would not have the delays of lube getting up to the valve train the pushrods do.
Expecting 70 degrees in Florida today...on vacation w/ the Car...24.2 MPG over 1100 miles!!
Expecting 70 degrees in Florida today...on vacation w/ the Car...24.2 MPG over 1100 miles!!
carl, that's not quite how the SBC/LTx oiling system works, but i might have misunderstood.
from the pump it goes to the filter pad, from there a single port goes to the entrance of 3 main galleys.
3 galleys, the 2 on the side feed the lifters, the one in the middle feeds the cam journals and main bearings. (i vaguely remember someone trying to tell me that the mains share a galley with one bank of lifters, so this might be slightly different than i depicted.) rods are fed from the mains through holes drilled in the crank.
the front thrust plate on the cam is fed from holes in the 2 outer galley plugs. the water pump drive gear is actually fed only from runoff from the lifter valley, and splash.
the cam lobes and rollers in the lifters are oiled from the rod side clearances.
is that what you meant?
-michael
from the pump it goes to the filter pad, from there a single port goes to the entrance of 3 main galleys.
3 galleys, the 2 on the side feed the lifters, the one in the middle feeds the cam journals and main bearings. (i vaguely remember someone trying to tell me that the mains share a galley with one bank of lifters, so this might be slightly different than i depicted.) rods are fed from the mains through holes drilled in the crank.
the front thrust plate on the cam is fed from holes in the 2 outer galley plugs. the water pump drive gear is actually fed only from runoff from the lifter valley, and splash.
the cam lobes and rollers in the lifters are oiled from the rod side clearances.
is that what you meant?
-michael
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