Oil Filter Media Efficiencies (Beta) - Motorcraft

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: Jim Allen

I hope to find out. I will be testing an HDEO 10W30 in my 5.4L and datalogging VCT operation, as well as oil temp and pressure. We'll see. If nothing untoward happens, I'll leave the oil in, maybe running it long term and consolidating my oil stash (I use 10w30 HDEO in some of my farm equipment).


Jim, will you being doing this soon? I am very curious to see the results of your testing. I am currently running 5w30 synthetic in my '06 F150 5.4L. So far, the only difference I can detect is the engine is quieter and the occassional start-up rattle is gone. If its any consolation, Ford recommends MC 5w30 in this engine/F150 in their South American market. Keep us posted.

 

[Jim Allen]

It'll be a coupla months yet before I reach my OCI. My engine isn't particularly noisy. I'm perfectly fine using a 5W20 but since I can't get any data on VCT operation with a heavier oil, I'll generate some of my own. If I see no practical downsides to it, I can then run four engines on the same oil, maybe five (not including mowers and such).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
I believe the VCT phaser in these engines operate off hydraulic pressure. So within reason, how important is flow. Will running 5w30 vs 5w20 really make a difference in operation (VCT)?


If the VCT mechanism is ran off oil pressure with little flow involved (which I believe they are), then I don't see why it wouldn't function properly with a thicker oil. Heck, the oil is thick when it's cold and the VCT still works if you had to tromp on it with cold oil in the engine.

The only thing I could see maybe happening is if you ran too thick of an oil in cold weather it might take a little longer to build up oil pressure and that might make the VCT system rattle on cold start-up. I know the Nissan engines with VCT can be sensitive to cold start-up rattle if oil pressure isn't built up quickly.

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: modularv8
I believe the VCT phaser in these engines operate off hydraulic pressure. So within reason, how important is flow. Will running 5w30 vs 5w20 really make a difference in operation (VCT)?


If the VCT mechanism is ran off oil pressure with little flow involved (which I believe they are), then I don't see why it wouldn't function properly with a thicker oil. Heck, the oil is thick when it's cold and the VCT still works if you had to tromp on it with cold oil in the engine.

The only thing I could see maybe happening is if you ran too thick of an oil in cold weather it might take a little longer to build up oil pressure and that might make the VCT system rattle on cold start-up. I know the Nissan engines with VCT can be sensitive to cold start-up rattle if oil pressure isn't built up quickly.


Isn't the VCT supposed to be "locked" (pin lock) when cold (cold start). I have seen what you are talking about. Does this mean the pin mechanism is worn/damaged?. My truck makes this noise for the first 3-5 minutes. The sound is coming from the driver-side engine bank (loudest when listening through grill). I've taken off the drive belt to eliminate any noises there, but it still has it. I am tempted to disconnect the VCT oil control solenoid on the next morning's cold start. The noise started around 30k miles while using strictly MC 5w20. While around the same mileage, the truck started experiencing a clattering sound when accelerating after 3k miles into the OCI (sound went away after disconnecting the VCT oil control solenoid for diagnostic). I'm at 50k miles and the acceleration clatter is gone, but the cold start-up noise is still there. I think I want to have Ford look at it before the warranty runs out at 60k.

 

[river_rat]

I don't have a Ford, but the VVT engine on my Tacoma is spec'ed for 5W-20 and I been running 5W-30.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
I don't have a Ford, but the VVT engine on my Tacoma is spec'ed for 5W-20 and I been running 5W-30.


When did they change the spec from 5W-30 to 5W-20? I know the 2005 Tacoma 4.0L V6 with VVT specs 5W-30.

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: modularv8
[

Isn't the VCT supposed to be "locked" (pin lock) when cold (cold start).


Mine never has been. I don't know exactly what they are supposed to do, but I monitor cam position on a programmer all the time and only once, when it was parked outside on a very cold morning, did it stay at zero and then only for a very brief time. It was so brief, and I was so clueless at that moment, that I'm still not sure I saw it. My plan, now that winter is here, is to datalog an outside cold start with 5W20 to see all the "normal" parameters with the recommended viscosity, including cam position vs temp. I have some information on a tuning cell but it's on a very old Win98 laptop from the '90s that I have been having trouble getting fired up. If I can get it going, I may be able to print out the factory tuning parameters.

 

[AuthorEditor]

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't the viscosity of the 5W-20 and 10W-30 oil be very close over most operating temps above say freezing until the engine warms up fully? I would think the only scenario where you might encounter a problem with VCT operation would be in very cold winter temps. In other words, let's say the engine starts fine with 5W-20 at say 0 degrees, wouldn't it then be fine with 10W-30 if it was say 30 degrees?

 

[Jim Allen]

Originally Posted By: AuthorEditor
Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't the viscosity of the 5W-20 and 10W-30 oil be very close over most operating temps above say freezing until the engine warms up fully? I would think the only scenario where you might encounter a problem with VCT operation would be in very cold winter temps. In other words, let's say the engine starts fine with 5W-20 at say 0 degrees, wouldn't it then be fine with 10W-30 if it was say 30 degrees?


If you graph those two oils, they are pretty different. It would be valid to ague how significant the difference would be day to day, but there are also a goodyl number of unanswered questions with regards to the VCT added to the mix.

 

[modularv8]

I listened to it again this morning (30F in San Antonio) and I am almost convinced its not the VCT. It is a repetitive rubbing sound coming from the driver side chain cover. Sounds like the chain rubbing against the guide. Only does it on the first start on a cold morning and gradually goes away after 5 minutes.

 

[river_rat]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: river_rat
I don't have a Ford, but the VVT engine on my Tacoma is spec'ed for 5W-20 and I been running 5W-30.


When did they change the spec from 5W-30 to 5W-20? I know the 2005 Tacoma 4.0L V6 with VVT specs 5W-30.

Starting with the '07 models in the 4 cylinder engine only.

 

[modularv8]

I guess getting back to the original thread. 92% @ 20 microns is about on par with the Wix equivalent of the FL820s. I read an oil filter industry report where an oil filter engineer/expert claimed that ISO test data published by oil filter makers for marketing purposes does not correlate to real world field performance. Primarily because of pressure spikes, vibration, vicosity variations, varying flow rates, temperature variances, etc. I guess once you get into efficiencies in the 90 percentile range, the difference between a Pure One filter (99.9%) and a Wix (~95%) is meaningless because of the variances that occur in real world use. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[river_rat]

My theory is that is you have two different filters, one that is say, 99% efficient, and the other 90% in the same SAE tests, then I personally don't care if they filter at those numbers in the real world.
But I want the 99% one--because the 90% one will also be sublect to the same pressure spikes, etc, and the 99% filter will do comparatively better in the real world.
It's all about picking the best one you can, not percentages.

 

[modularv8]

Originally Posted By: river_rat
My theory is that is you have two different filters, one that is say, 99% efficient, and the other 90% in the same SAE tests, then I personally don't care if they filter at those numbers in the real world.
But I want the 99% one--because the 90% one will also be sublect to the same pressure spikes, etc, and the 99% filter will do comparatively better in the real world.
It's all about picking the best one you can, not percentages.


True. But there is more to a filter than the media (ADBV, bypass type/location, RVOP, flow rating, etc) that the OEM thinks is important. As far as Ford vehicles are concerned, I have come to realize that Ford Engineering has already figured everything out (and a reason behind every design), therefore there really isn't anything better than Motorcraft products in a Ford. Nothing left to do than to follow the recommended maintenance.

 

[river_rat]

True that. I should have said, all other things being equal, but I was responding to the efficiency thoughts only. Your car will likely last just as long with 95% plus efficiency, if the filter stays together and doesn't send media into the oil galleries. Some things like canister thickness don't matter if the thing don't blow up. I use MC filters sometimes on my Toyota. Good filters, but I usually go with PureOnes or K&Ns.

 

[modularv8]

Agreed. ...