Valvoline Restore & Protect 5W30 OR Mobil 1 Euro FS 0W40?
- Thread starter MR 22
- Start date
why the need for a 0w40 in a car spec'ed for 0w20?
The M1 ESP 0w30 with a hths of 3.5 that was mentioned earlier seems fully sufficient.
I was offering it as a better alternative to M1 FS 0W-40, not saying he should run it in a vehicle calling for 0W-20.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
What's your basis for stating that it's better than the FS oil?
Patman
Staff member
I realize that but it still shows that there is a difference in oil temperature between a cold day and a hot day. That difference is enough that with the cooler oil temperature it would basically have the same effect as having a 40wt in there (especially since I run ESP 5w30 which is almost a 40 anyway).
how would you see this without removing the piston?
Best I can do is to see if my oil consumption returns.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
I would say the increase or decrease in temperature depends a lot on cooling system and the way it is design. In BMW changes are minimal.
But, that is why I recommended 0W30 as in this application, if someone wants anything thicker, that would be overkill anyway.
O M G! Giggle Giggle Giggle!
Watch Lake speed here about this Restore and protect.
I'm in love with this guy!! Please dont tell my wife...
Priceless Information. Yes Mobil 1 5w30 Extended Performance. Saved my Subaru EJ2.5 when a ring stuck. Blah Blah Blak I have spoken about this many times here on BITOG. Blah Blah. So is this better? Look!
Watch Lake speed here about this Restore and protect.
I'm in love with this guy!! Please dont tell my wife...
Priceless Information. Yes Mobil 1 5w30 Extended Performance. Saved my Subaru EJ2.5 when a ring stuck. Blah Blah Blak I have spoken about this many times here on BITOG. Blah Blah. So is this better? Look!
The truth! Backed up by test results and engine disassembly. WHAT?
The engines are designed to run a range of grades. The engines that are designed to run a thinner viscosity have closer tolerances in the engine, Bearings, Pistons etc. Going up a grade is probably fine but 2 or 3 grades may be a bad idea in cold weather especially. Unless your running it hard. Watch some of Lake speeds videos and you will see why. Costs horsepower, Torque and more.
Can you give some modern from a manufacturer examples of this?
No they do not have "closer tolerances". Did you learn this on YouTube as well?
And you can go more than one grades up without mechanical issue. Cold weather performance is dictated by the winter rating, one can use a 0W-40 all day long.
Uh, no.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
No, mass produced automotive engines generally all have pretty similar clearances, regardless of grade spec'd (clearances are the spaces between parts, tolerances are the allowed amount of variation from the spec'd clearance). Where things change is when we get down to grades like 0W-12 and 0W-8 where the MOFT just isn't there with these ultra thin oils, so the solution is to increase the bearing width, to increase its load carrying capacity and provide a larger film over which the load is spread. This increases friction of course, but apparently the increase in friction here is less than the overall savings by going with the thinner oil when looked at as a whole. This was heavily experimented with in Japan long before it made its way to North America.
Yes. I saw it on you tube. In an engine shop for Lake Speed @ total seal piston rings. Ill look for the video. I just did a general search on the internet. Here is what I found. It makes perfect sense to me. I had a ford 300 straight 6 that had worn mains and rod bearings. Oil light would come on at idle and going up 2 grades to a 20w50 bought me some time ( about a year). I understand every manufacturer has a tolerance and i dont know what it would be in this case study. Just that running a grade way outside the spec would not be my recommendation.
Aug 29, 2021 — The typical rule that most engine builders follow is that bearing clearance establishes the viscosity of the oil to use within a given oil temperature range.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/what-i-learned-today-bearing-clearances-vs-oil-viscosities/
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/what-i-learned-today-bearing-clearances-vs-oil-viscosities/
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Yes. I saw it on you tube. In an engine shop for Lake Speed @ total seal piston rings. Ill look for the video. I just did a general search on the internet. Here is what I found. It makes perfect sense to me. I had a ford 300 straight 6 that had worn mains and rod bearings. Oil light would come on at idle and going up 2 grades to a 20w50 bought me some time ( about a year). I understand every manufacturer has a tolerance and i dont know what it would be in this case study. Just that running a grade way outside the spec would not be my recommendation.
Aug 29, 2021 — The typical rule that most engine builders follow is that bearing clearance establishes the viscosity of the oil to use within a given oil temperature range.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/what-i-learned-today-bearing-clearances-vs-oil-viscosities/
1985 Ford 302:
main bearing
desired 0.0004 to 0.0015 in
allowable 0.0004 to 0.0026 in
conecting rod journal
desired 0.0008 to 0.0015 in
allowable 0.0008 to 0.0026 in
2016+ Toyota FA20:
Main Bearing Clearance
Standard clearance: 0.00051 to 0.00122 in
Rod Bearing Clearance
Standard oil clearance: 0.00098 to 0.00217 in
The clearance numbers are close. The ford recommends 5w30 in the 302 and the fa toyota takes 0w20. I suppose in this case one could use 0w20 in the ford for better mileage.
Edit I wouldent. recommend it... Who know what it would do to other things. Thanks for the info
Edit I wouldent. recommend it... Who know what it would do to other things. Thanks for the info
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I think the Ford spec'd 10W-30 back in '85, but yes, the numbers are very close, in fact the lower limit on the Ford mains (0.0004) is slightly tighter than on the Toyota (0.00051).
Now, another interesting data point: the Ford Coyote engine has the same bearing clearances, regardless of whether it spec'd 5W-20 (GT) or 5W-50 (GT Track Pack).
Here are the 6.4L HEMI clearances (spec's 0W-40):
Main bearings:
0.0009 - 0.002 in
Rod bearings:
0.0007 - 0.0029 in
- Upper limit for mains is tighter than the Ford, looser than the Toyota. Lower limit higher than both, so tighter tolerance than the Ford.
- Upper limit for the rods is looser than for both. Lower limit is tighter than the Toyota, but looser than the Ford.
Everyone goes straight to bearing clearances and rules of thumbs for viscosity, however clearances aren’t the only variable. There are many other factors that determine viscosity.
Let’s say you have two engines with the exact same clearances, but one turns at 3-4K RPM the other spends most of its life at 7k. Often the engineers will spec a higher viscosity oil for the 7k engine. This is because at 7k the load increases, so does the temp, and shear load, so the thicker, let’s say 5w-50, is better. So 5w-50 oil at 7k may have the same hydraulic wedge as the 5w-30 at 3k, even with the exact same engine.
So, then people say 5w-50 must also be good at 3-4K. The problem is, the oil doesn’t shear down and the temp isn’t hot, so a lot of the oil doesn’t make it through the bearings, it either bypasses or exits the side of the bearings. Neither are good and often make the bearings run hotter.
Let’s say you have two engines with the exact same clearances, but one turns at 3-4K RPM the other spends most of its life at 7k. Often the engineers will spec a higher viscosity oil for the 7k engine. This is because at 7k the load increases, so does the temp, and shear load, so the thicker, let’s say 5w-50, is better. So 5w-50 oil at 7k may have the same hydraulic wedge as the 5w-30 at 3k, even with the exact same engine.
So, then people say 5w-50 must also be good at 3-4K. The problem is, the oil doesn’t shear down and the temp isn’t hot, so a lot of the oil doesn’t make it through the bearings, it either bypasses or exits the side of the bearings. Neither are good and often make the bearings run hotter.
