Used Toyota Mirais, 90% depreciation (Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle), ICE / BEV conversion candidate?

[alarmguy]

Hydrogen is a fuel.

It is not a power source.

Very little free hydrogen exists, it bonds with other things, like oxygen, easily, so it has to be extracted from various chemical compounds with which the hydrogen has bonded. Breaking the bond takes energy.

Extracting pure hydrogen from water takes a huge amount of electricity, that took energy to generate.

Extracting H2 from fossil fuels requires a large amount of energy, typically in the form of heat.

So many ways to get it, sure - but all of them take energy and lots of it.

Not that I disagree as far as production. But if you read my links, there might be a way in the future including naturally occurring H2.
The fuel cell is the electrical power source but technically h2 I believe is the storage medium.

We still can not deny that powering over 300 million vehicles is not possible with any current technology other than gasoline. So it is wide open to future developments on all technologies.

 

[Astro14]

Not that I disagree as far as production. But if you read my links, there might be a way in the future including naturally occurring H2.
The fuel cell is the electrical power source but technically h2 I believe is the storage medium.

We still can not deny that powering over 300 million vehicles is not possible with any current technology other than gasoline. So it is wide open to future developments on all technologies.

“Naturally occurring H2” is the point to which I am objecting. It’s not wide open to future development.

The sun has an abundance of naturally occurring H2. About 1.5 billion billion billion tons. Give or take. About 250,000 times the mass of the ENTIRE Earth.

And? Not exactly available for use.

Hydrogen readily combines with other elements.

The only way that you’re getting pure, unattached, hydrogen, on this planet, is to pay the price, in energy, to separate it.

Period.

Use electricity, use heat, doesn’t matter, you have to provide the energy to break the chemical bond. This is basic chemistry, and no, there is no way around that.

Not one of your links stated anything new. “Plug Power” uses a large amount of electricity to provide hydrogen. Chevron is able to sell hydrogen because it is created heat is applied to fossil fuel, be that CNG, or in the process of refining petroleum. Steam reformation of Natural Gas is how most commercially available hydrogen is derived at the moment.

So, at the moment, Hydrogen is, in fact, fossil fuel. It can be made through hydrolysis, which takes a lot of electricity, and what “Plug Power” is offering - but that is more expensive than steam reformation.

I’m not objecting to a hydrogen fuel system, I am objecting to the complete fantasy that hydrogen is “naturally occurring” and available. I am objecting to the “free lunch” fantasy.

 

[wpod]

Please. That thing is butt ugly.

It looks like a Toyota.

 

[alarmguy]

“Naturally occurring H2” is the point to which I am objecting. It’s not wide open to future development.

The sun has an abundance of naturally occurring H2. About 1.5 billion billion billion tons. Give or take. About 250,000 times the mass of the ENTIRE Earth.

And? Not exactly available for use.

Hydrogen readily combines with other elements.

The only way that you’re getting pure, unattached, hydrogen, on this planet, is to pay the price, in energy, to separate it.

Period.

Use electricity, use heat, doesn’t matter, you have to provide the energy to break the chemical bond. This is basic chemistry, and no, there is no way around that.

Not one of your links stated anything new. “Plug Power” uses a large amount of electricity to provide hydrogen. Chevron is able to sell hydrogen because it is created heat is applied to fossil fuel, be that CNG, or in the process of refining petroleum. Steam reformation of Natural Gas is how most commercially available hydrogen is derived at the moment.

So, at the moment, Hydrogen is, in fact, fossil fuel. It can be made through hydrolysis, which takes a lot of electricity, and what “Plug Power” is offering - but that is more expensive than steam reformation.

I’m not objecting to a hydrogen fuel system, I am objecting to the complete fantasy that hydrogen is “naturally occurring” and available. I am objecting to the “free lunch” fantasy.

No one knows what the future is, you cant think in the present if you want to advance to the future. You're making an argument against H2 and that is ok. I never said it's a cure all. I do say that major corporations are using it.

But in these discussions you are not saying what technology is available to power 300 million cars either.
If we knew the future, we would be there, so premature to discount anything until you are "there" All we currently know is, h2 is being used by large corporations and they are saving money, such as Walmarts claim of a projected 5% savings using h2 compared to battery recharging of their electric fork lifts because the lifts are not tied up charging.

Biological Processes​

Microbes such as bacteria and microalgae can produce hydrogen through biological reactions, using sunlight or organic matter. These technology pathways are in the research and development stage, with pilot demonstrations occurring, but in the long term have the potential for sustainable, low-carbon hydrogen production. Learn more about the following biological processes:

• Microbial biomass conversion
• Photobiological.

 

[Astro14]

No one knows what the future is, you cant think in the present if you want to advance to the future. You're making an argument against H2 and that is ok. I never said it's a cure all. I do say that major corporations are using it.

But in these discussions you are not saying what technology is available to power 300 million cars either.
If we knew the future, we would be there, so premature to discount anything until you are "there" All we currently know is, h2 is being used by large corporations and they are saving money, such as Walmarts claim of a projected 5% savings using h2 compared to battery recharging of their electric fork lifts because the lifts are not tied up charging.

Biological Processes​

Microbes such as bacteria and microalgae can produce hydrogen through biological reactions, using sunlight or organic matter. These technology pathways are in the research and development stage, with pilot demonstrations occurring, but in the long term have the potential for sustainable, low-carbon hydrogen production. Learn more about the following biological processes:

• Microbial biomass conversion
• Photobiological.

No. I am not making an argument against H2.

I’m making an argument thermodynamic fantasy.

Those biological processes take energy, and they don’t scale to the volume needed.

“The future” includes physics, includes the reality that freeing hydrogen from its chemical bonds takes energy.

There is no version of “the future” in which that is not true.

The hydrogen revolution will take more ability to generate energy than we have now, because it won’t be liberating the energy stored in fossil fuels, the energy will have to come from somewhere else.

 

[nthach]

A Mirai is basically a Prius without an ICE. Shouldn’t be too hard to turn it(Mirai) back into one(Prius). And both are Corolla-based, except for the current gen Mirai that’s basically a Lexus IS/LS underneath(TNGA-L) instead of the Corolla platform.

 

[nthach]

Hydrogen is a fuel.

It is not a power source.

Very little free hydrogen exists, it bonds with other things, like oxygen, easily, so it has to be extracted from various chemical compounds with which the hydrogen has bonded. Breaking the bond takes energy.

Extracting pure hydrogen from water takes a huge amount of electricity, that took energy to generate.

Extracting H2 from fossil fuels requires a large amount of energy, typically in the form of heat.

So many ways to get it, sure - but all of them take energy and lots of it.

The local transit agency here(AC Transit, Oakland/Berkeley, CA) has a H2 reformer at one of their yards but they still need to buy regularly-processed H2 to keep their fuel cell buses rolling, the reformer can only make so much gas in a day.

 

[PandaBear]

No one knows what the future is, you cant think in the present if you want to advance to the future. You're making an argument against H2 and that is ok. I never said it's a cure all. I do say that major corporations are using it.

But in these discussions you are not saying what technology is available to power 300 million cars either.
If we knew the future, we would be there, so premature to discount anything until you are "there" All we currently know is, h2 is being used by large corporations and they are saving money, such as Walmarts claim of a projected 5% savings using h2 compared to battery recharging of their electric fork lifts because the lifts are not tied up charging.

Biological Processes​

Microbes such as bacteria and microalgae can produce hydrogen through biological reactions, using sunlight or organic matter. These technology pathways are in the research and development stage, with pilot demonstrations occurring, but in the long term have the potential for sustainable, low-carbon hydrogen production. Learn more about the following biological processes:

• Microbial biomass conversion
• Photobiological.

Future still need to follow the laws of thermodynamics. Energy must either come from a mined resource or convert from something that has a higher energy potential.

Coal, natural gas, Uranium, etc are resources that have energy stored in it compare to the baseline it will turn into. Coal and natural gas have Carbon and Hydrogen trapped inside that will turn into CO2 and H2O if burnt, and they are naturally at that state in nature we can harvest. The work was done in the past in nature and kept underground and are stable in storage for millions of years. Uranium can release energy after enrichment and put into reactor, and they are kept in nature at this state and not decayed yet when we mine it out.

The sun will outlive our civilization so it is "infinite" to us.

Hydrogen on the other hand, already react to something else in nature on earth or escaped the atmosphere. To get hydrogen we have to crack it out of something, it cannot be mined. Cracking hydrogen takes energy, and when we react it with oxygen in fuel cell or burn it in combustion we get the energy back. This makes it a battery (we will get at most what we put in, but most likely less), not a fuel (we get it as a net positive from nature).

Reason people want hydrogen was because: 1) It is locally clean if you run fuel cell, and get only water, and 2) the "efficiency" of a HFC is close to 90 if you look at only the cell itself. This looks perfect on paper. You avoid HC and CO pollution and the carnot cycle limit in physics.

The problem with hydrogen is the efficiency of cracking H2 out of natural gas / oil or electrolysis is very inefficient. When you combine that it makes sense all the stationary fuel cell are SOFC (the oxygen ion pass through the cell) instead of HFC (the hydrogen ion pass through the cell). When you combine all the net pollution generated and the efficiency, fuel cell is really not as good as storing electricity in a lithium battery or burning the fuel directly in a combine cycle gas turbine.

The only reason fuel cell makes sense, is back in the days when lithium battery was too expensive to make. Fuel cell with a small battery for buffering was a promising technology to substitute a fully electric car with huge battery.

Since we already have a fully electric car today with 300 miles at an affordable price, why go backward to a hydrogen car?

 

[alarmguy]

Since we already have a fully electric car today with 300 miles at an affordable price, why go backward to a hydrogen car?

One could ask why go backwards to the time it takes refueling a car? If not downright impossible for an EV currently
I think we are short sited to think we know all the technologies of the future when all we know is the present.

 

[y_p_w]

One could ask why go backwards to the time it takes refueling a car? If not downright impossible for an EV currently
I think we are short sited to think we know all the technologies of the future when all we know is the present.

What's "going backwards" though? Why would anyone want to use rechargeable batteries that take minutes to hours to charge when there are alkalines that are available and already charged? For many, the ability to charge overnight at home or in a parking lot at work beats going to a gas station. It's definitely a different mindset.

 

[alarmguy]

What's "going backwards" though? Why would anyone want to use rechargeable batteries that take minutes to hours to charge when there are alkalines that are available and already charged? For many, the ability to charge overnight at home or in a parking lot at work beats going to a gas station. It's definitely a different mindset.

You are correct “for many”
However, not even remotely close for everybody
You are correct “for many”
However, not even remotely close for everybody.
How are multiple cars going to recharge at a house every night?
How are people who live in high-rise apartment buildings, condo buildings, hotels, resorts, any kind of building that’s not a single-family resident going to charge?
I called this going backwards if those people have to be inconvenienced by banning the sale of gasoline vehicles.

However, no matter what politicians say, that will never happen

 

[y_p_w]

You are correct “for many”
However, not even remotely close for everybody

It doesn't have to be for everybody. The ability to "refuel" at home is very appealing to many.

 

[alarmguy]

It doesn't have to be for everybody. The ability to "refuel" at home is very appealing to many.

I updated my post above after you replied. BITOG had some security message, and I had a refresh my page.
I think I answered myself in that reply
I’m assuming you remember the governor of California and some other states have set in motion legislation to ban the sale of gasoline vehicles

Don’t take my post out of context.
I 100% believe electric vehicles have a place in society as long as they are not forced by regulations on a free people.
With that said, there was no way in the lifetime of anybody on this forum we will be a 100% electric society with the current lithium battery.

 

[alarmguy]

By the way, does anyone in here ever had a teenager in the household who borrowed your car or anyone for that matter, including a spouse?
My first question would be how do you plug in four cars at a time overnight at a house?
My second question is back to the teenager or spouse. Did you ever jump in your car to go someplace and realize you had to put gas in the tank to make sure you made it to work or wherever you were going?
What was the solution then you pull into a gas station, correct?
What do you do if it’s an EV?

I’m repeating we may have an EV in our own household in the future but we’re retired now and it’s only a second car as most every EV owner has a second car that is powered by gasoline

For the life of me I couldn’t imagine having two or three teenagers with cars and your own cars being all battery operated.

 

[tcp71]

By the way, does anyone in here ever had a teenager in the household who borrowed your car or anyone for that matter, including a spouse?
My first question would be how do you plug in four cars at a time overnight at a house?
My second question is back to the teenager or spouse. Did you ever jump in your car to go someplace and realize you had to put gas in the tank to make sure you made it to work or wherever you were going?
What was the solution then you pull into a gas station, correct?
What do you do if it’s an EV?

I’m repeating we may have an EV in our own household in the future but we’re retired now and it’s only a second car as most every EV owner has a second car that is powered by gasoline

For the life of me I couldn’t imagine having two or three teenagers with cars and your own cars being all battery operated.

I have two teenage boys and we have 4 vehicles for 4 drivers. To think an EV can replace all 4 is silly. Probably two could be replaced with EVs as there is always a need for local commuting, etc, but I have to disagree on the hydrogen front. Basing a use case on "what the future might bring" has been a fools errand since Ballard Energy started working on hydrogen in the 70s. Fifty years later and we can see how far they (and hydrogen) have come. Notice how reality kicks the stock back in 2003 and 2023.

 

[OVERKILL]

I have two teenage boys and we have 4 vehicles for 4 drivers. To think an EV can replace all 4 is silly. Probably two could be replaced with EVs as there is always a need for local commuting, etc, but I have to disagree on the hydrogen front. Basing a use case on "what the future might bring" has been a fools errand since Ballard Energy started working on hydrogen in the 70s. Fifty years later and we can see how far they (and hydrogen) have come. Notice how reality kicks the stock back in 2003 and 2023.

View attachment 207989

Yup, we could realistically replace one of our two vehicles in our house with an EV, which would probably make a lot of sense if we ignore the current interest rates, ridiculous costs of things and the fact that both vehicles are quite new and were bought at dealer cost.

 

[Torrid]

Yup, we could realistically replace one of our two vehicles in our house with an EV, which would probably make a lot of sense if we ignore the current interest rates, ridiculous costs of things and the fact that both vehicles are quite new and were bought at dealer cost.

That's why I've always said that buying a vehicle to save money is the completely wrong approach. Now if you're determined to buy a vehicle or determined some form of need for a one and you have two similarly priced vehicles and one is cheaper to operate and maintain, then there's some data to back up it saving money over the other considered option. Making the purchase while borrowing money and also realizing the depreciation of trading a vehicle in the process for the sole purpose of saving money on daily operating cost is just mental gymnastics to justify a want.

 

[Vern_in_IL]

Seems to me that there are 3 problems.
1. Hydrogen source
2. Hydrogen storage
3. Hydrogen compression to refuel

Exactly, this has NOTHING to do with Toyota brand value. We need a free open market of hydrogen sites, and either the free market or the Government through subsidies can get this rolling. Hydrogen is the future, so lets get red tape out and fully commit to hydrogen. Just as we committed hydrogen to a thermo nuclear weapon. Rather than obsolete EV tech.

 

[y_p_w]

Exactly, this has NOTHING to do with Toyota brand value. We need a free open market of hydrogen sites, and either the free market or the Government through subsidies can get this rolling. Hydrogen is the future, so lets get red tape out and fully commit to hydrogen. Just as we committed hydrogen to a thermo nuclear weapon. Rather than obsolete EV tech.

That's a different scale and price point. I mean - making liquid hydrogen for NASA was almost cost no object.

Also - thermonuclear weapons don't use normal hydrogen. They use deuterium and some tritium. And getting enough of that stuff isn't cheap. It's also not typically in a gaseous or liquid form, but in a solid compound.

 

[OVERKILL]

That's a different scale and price point. I mean - making liquid hydrogen for NASA was almost cost no object.

Also - thermonuclear weapons don't use normal hydrogen. They use deuterium and some tritium. And getting enough of that stuff isn't cheap. It's also not typically in a gaseous or liquid form, but in a solid compound.

*Quick, hide the CANDU's*