Fast charging system for electric bus

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Here is a list of articles that deal with the current fast charging. 8 minutes for 350 kwhs now.

https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/energy-storage/energy-storage-infrastructure.html

BP Invests in Tech to Charge Cars as Quickly as Filling Gas Tank

ABB Launches 8-minute Charger for Electric Vehicles


Do you have anything not from renewableenergyworld.com? I'd prefer an unbiased source.


Sorry I don't want to do your research. Renewable Energy World just collects articles and post them. There are the original articles you can find if you are diligent enough to track them down.

But you must be a busy guy so here's a quick search of one of the articles.

https://www.startpage.com/do/search?lang...ank&cat=web

 

[OVERKILL]

I saw the BP investment article, it's originally from Bloomberg and lacks any real details. The rest of them appear to be in-house generated by "Renewable Energy World" for the most part.

Posting propaganda from Renewable Energy World isn't "research" any more than it would be if I posted something about Hybrids being the ultimate end game from "hybridsarethebestintheworld.com".

Renewable Energy World is a sounding board for die-hard green advocates looking to hyperbolize and/or intercourse ideological fantasy with fragments of truth to push a narrative. That's why I'd suggested before that you cite a different source, and why I just stated so again. If that bothers you, that I expect a higher standard of sourcing than what you've provided, then that is unfortunate, but it doesn't challenge the legitimacy of the crux of my argument.

Don't post propaganda and I'll give it a genuine read. Post propaganda, and I'll call you on it. Every time.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I saw the BP investment article, it's originally from Bloomberg and lacks any real details. The rest of them appear to be in-house generated by "Renewable Energy World" for the most part.

Posting propaganda from Renewable Energy World isn't "research" any more than it would be if I posted something about Hybrids being the ultimate end game from "hybridsarethebestintheworld.com".

Renewable Energy World is a sounding board for die-hard green advocates looking to hyperbolize and/or intercourse ideological fantasy with fragments of truth to push a narrative. That's why I'd suggested before that you cite a different source, and why I just stated so again. If that bothers you, that I expect a higher standard of sourcing than what you've provided, then that is unfortunate, but it doesn't challenge the legitimacy of the crux of my argument.

Don't post propaganda and I'll give it a genuine read. Post propaganda, and I'll call you on it. Every time.
If you don't read the links you don't know what you are talking about.

ABB launches world’s fastest e-vehicle c...inable mobility

First look at Ionity’s latest ultra-fast EV charging station

 

[OVERKILL]

Here's a valuable article, full of details, from the end of last year from Toshiba on their new fast-charge Lithium Ion battery technology that uses a new anode material:
https://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2017_10/pr0301.htm

Originally Posted By: Toshiba

Toshiba Corporation (TOKYO: 6502), an industry leader in lithium-ion battery technology, today announced the development of its next-generation SCiBTM, which uses a new material to double the capacity of the battery anode. The new battery offers high- energy density and the ultra-rapid recharging required for automotive applications, and will give a compact electric vehicle (EV) with a drive range of 320km* after only six minutes of ultra-rapid recharging—three times the distance possible with current lithium-ion batteries.

Toshiba launched the SCiBTM as a safe, long-life, fast charging lithium-ion battery in 2008. Since then, the company has constantly refined the technology and improved real-world performance. For its next-generation SCiBTM, Toshiba has developed a titanium niobium oxide anode material that has double the lithium storage capacity by volume of the graphite-based anodes generally used in lithium-ion batteries.

The new battery also offers high energy density and ultra-rapid recharging characteristics, and its titanium niobium oxide anode is much less likely to experience lithium metal deposition during ultra-rapid recharging or recharging in cold conditions—a cause of battery degradation and internal short circuiting.


*snip*

Originally Posted By: Toshiba

Building on this heritage, Toshiba has developed a proprietary method for synthesizing and disarranging crystals of titanium niobium oxide and storing lithium ions more efficiently in the crystal structure. The anode of the next-generation SCiBTM realized through this approach has double times the capacity of the anode of current lithium-ion batteries.


*snip*

Originally Posted By: Toshiba

Rigorous testing of a 50Ah prototype of the new battery has confirmed that it retains the long life cycle, low-temperature operation, excellent safety and rapid recharging characteristics of the current SCiBTM. The energy density by volume of battery is twice that of the current SCiBTM. The next-generation SCiBTM maintains over 90% of its initial capacity after being put through 5,000 charge/discharge cycles, and ultra-rapid recharging can be done in cold conditions, with temperatures as low as minus 10°C, in only ten minutes.

Toshiba will continue to develop higher energy density batteries that extend the range of EVs and support ultra-rapid recharging, and aims to commercialize the next-generation SCiBTM in fiscal year 2019.


The Toshiba information shows a product that can recharge a 32kWh battery to about 90% in 6 minutes, at least that's my interpretation based on the table presented near the end of the article where I assume the 30 minute charge of the same battery is fully charged.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ

If you don't read the links you don't know what you are talking about.

ABB launches world’s fastest e-vehicle c...inable mobility

First look at Ionity’s latest ultra-fast EV charging station


Hey, some real links! Now how hard was that?

Now, that first one, I believe you've mischaracterized the output of the charger.

You stated:
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Here is a list of articles that deal with the current fast charging. 8 minutes for 350 kwhs now.


but the article states:

Originally Posted By: ABB
By operating at powers of up to 350 kilowatts, the newest model from ABB, Terra High Power charger, adds up to 200 kilometers of range to an electric vehicle in just 8 minutes.


which is 46.67kWh at maximum output, that's a big difference.

The 2nd article supports this, with this statement:

Originally Posted By: elektrek
Ionity is planning 400 stations with a capacity of up to 350 kW across Europe by 2020. The company began work on the first 20 stations last year and plan to hit a total of 100 stations this year.

There’s currently no electric car capable of charging at that rate, but EV owners can still use the stations up to their capacity – generally ~50 kW.


This is consistent with the Toshiba information I posted above, as at a 350kW charge rate, the output in 6 minutes is 35kWh, very close to what appears to be shown in their table.

Which demonstrates that apparently even when you do read the links, you can still not know what you are talking about

Now, you want to throw stones or discuss batteries? You post more links from reputable sources like you finally got around to doing, and we can continue to chat.

 

[SHOZ]

Future developments in batteries will allow them to deliver in their stated time frames. New charging hardware can't retroactively change the cars and batteries now on the roads.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Future developments in batteries will allow them to deliver in their stated time frames. New charging hardware can't retroactively change the cars and batteries now on the roads.


I don't think that's being debated. My point above was that you've managed to confuse the 350kW charge rate with a 350kWh charge in 8 minutes.

Both articles talk about a 350kW charger, which puts out 350kWh in 60 minutes if able to sustain maximum output for that duration.

To achieve a 350kWh charge in 8 minutes the output of the charger would need to be 2,625kW.

 

[SHOZ]

You are still confusing the application to today's technology batty wise. What is the peak output of those chargers? I don't see that listed.

The links came from that search page and could have easily be found by you if you had any desire.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You are still confusing the application to today's technology batty wise. What is the peak output of those chargers? I don't see that listed.

The links came from that search page and could have easily be found by you if you had any desire.


I'm not confusing anything, did you have your morning coffee today?

The peak output of those charges is listed in both quotes, from both of your sources in the post you literally just quoted:

Originally Posted By: ABB
By operating at powers of up to 350 kilowatts, the newest model from ABB

Originally Posted By: Elektrek
Ionity is planning 400 stations with a capacity of up to 350 kW across Europe by 2020


Both have an output of up to 350kW.

Now, who is confused?

 

[SHOZ]

The Terra High Power charger can charge up to 350 kilowatts, which translates to about 200 kilometers of range for an EV, in just 8 minutes, according to the company.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
The Terra High Power charger can charge up to 350 kilowatts, which translates to about 200 kilometers of range for an EV, in just 8 minutes, according to the company.


Yes, so it has an output of up to 350kW. That's 46.67kWh in 8 minutes in a car that obviously is less efficient than the one Toshiba is using in their table, which is able to get >300Km of range out of 30kWh.

 

[SHOZ]

So what are you saying? They don't work as described?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So what are you saying? They don't work as described?


I'm sure they work exactly as described, you seem to be confused as to what that entails, primarily due to what appears to be a lack of understanding as to the difference between Power, in kW and Energy, in kWh. Which makes having a discussion about things that operate on electricity exceedingly difficult.

There is a massive difference between a 350kW charger and a charger that can put out 350kWh in 8 minutes, which is a 2,625kW charger, or ~2.6MW.

The electrical requirement differences between the two are staggering and even the 350kW charger has some seriously impressive electrical needs.

 

[SHOZ]

So they just aren't improving fast enough for you? Much better than what was around 2 or 3 years ago.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
So they just aren't improving fast enough for you? Much better than what was around 2 or 3 years ago.


By they, do you mean the chargers? The chargers aren't the problem.

Coupling a high voltage/high current charger to a vehicle, while itself presenting its own suite of issues that Shannow has discussed extensively, isn't the primary obstacle.

Having a battery that is able to handle and absorb a rate of charge high enough to allow for a reasonable charge time, and the necessary supporting circuitry to facilitate that is the bigger issue.

That's why that Toshiba information I posted earlier is far more exciting than somebody producing a charger that has an output of 350kW. While neat that the initiative is there to deploy these chargers for future support of more advanced EV's, present vehicles are unable to utilize them at anywhere near their capacity. The technology Toshiba has developed allows for a far greater rate of uptake; a far greater allowable level of current without damaging the cells. This brings us much closer to the target of faster charging EV's and actually being able to take advantage of what a higher output charger can offer. Follow?

Batteries and their supporting technology is the area that needs the most growth, and that's where big players like Toshiba are making significant progress.

 

[SHOZ]

Fast charge batteries are coming. Israel is working on some as was listed in that group of fast charging news from Renewable Energy News. There already are solid state batteries that charge almost instantly. I think the goal with EV batteries is an 80% charge in 5 minutes.

Time for the electrical delivery business to pick up the pace though they certainly are working on it. The wind is blowing here in Illinois today, and industrial sized solar power generation is coming to the rural area too if they can get all the legalities worked out.

So the buggy whippers still have some time to pull the harrumph card......

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Fast charge batteries are coming. Israel is working on some as was listed in that group of fast charging news from Renewable Energy News. There already are solid state batteries that charge almost instantly. I think the goal with EV batteries is an 80% charge in 5 minutes.

Time for the electrical delivery business to pick up the pace though they certainly are working on it. The wind is blowing here in Illinois today, and industrial sized solar power generation is coming to the rural area too if they can get all the legalities worked out.

So the buggy whippers still have some time to pull the harrumph card......


I know Israel is "working on it" but Toshiba has a functional model and tested product

They are expecting to release it to market this coming year, which actually aligns quite well with the necessary absorption rate required to take full advantage of the 350kW chargers.

We've had insanely hot days these last few, very little wind and we have four reactors down: 3 for maintenance for the upcoming AC season and 1 for refurbishment, which will be down for a while. This leaves us with around 9,600MW of Nuclear vs our typical 13,000-ish, this resulted in us basically maxing out the interconnect to Quebec, taking full advantage of our hydro and burning about 2,000MW of natural gas.

This is today, which is a bit better on the wind side of things (we have 4,313MW of installed wind):



but still demonstrates that when we have a heat wave, wind isn't a great contributor, so we are making up for it with gas.

 

[Shannow]

First thing the advocates have to do is to work out the difference between energy and power when they are presenting their facts.

If they are confused about such simple electrical concepts, then they can make and bolster impossible claims.

SHOZ you struggled with the concepts way back in the Tesla Semi thread...it doesn't help your case...and "buggy whip" to try to portray someone who is trying to work AROUND your errors doesn't make them valid.

50KWh in 8 minutes is 375KW transfer rate...that's a third of a MW.

Again, how do you expect the pubic to deal with those energyies ?

As one who works in the industry, you know what sort of safety rules we have for trained professionals managing those powers.

Does the 8 minutes include the safety isolation at either end ?

Or do the cars so designed "dock" into a charging port ?

 

[SHOZ]

Ah yes; fear, uncertainty and doubt. The same buggy whip tactics they used with those monstrous horseless carriages. Scare little kids and horses. And gasoline, oh my goodness. The world will be in flames.

I'm sure they are working on the kinks and making safe ways to charge at the high current rates. They call this progress and innovation.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR


Since the distance of most bus stops are within 2-3 miles if this fast chargers are installed at all bus stops, it can charge a bus while it stops to let passengers in and out. Since most stops will be about 1 minutes or a little longer, the fast charger can add 3 miles(or more) of juice to the battery and this is enough for the bus to get to the next stop. This will enable the battery bus to run all day without stopping for hours to recharge its' battery. Please note that this fast charger is for city bus, not long distance bus.


NOTE: Proterra is an American company with headquarter in California, not in China. They have manufacturing plants in So Cal and in South Carolina, none in China.


MCI(New Flyer) is working on electrifying their coaches, apparently it will use the same hardware as their Xcelsior Charge BEV bus but if the charging takes 3 hours, I'll bet New Flyer is interested in those Proterra patents to make it acceptable enough. MCI does have a good share of the long-distance commuter bus market and I'm sure the MTA in New York and NJ Transit who operate the biggest fleets of the MCI D4500 commuter version would love an electric version of it.

http://www.mcicoach.com/media-center/2018-05-10-battery-electric.htm and https://www.newflyer.com/buses/xcelsior-charge/

Right now in the Bay Area, Walnut Creek's free downtown shuttle is running 4 Gillig Low Floor buses with an all-electric BAE Systems drivetrain and wireless charging. The buses get a top-off charge via inductive charging pads installed at two stops at each end of the route, and plugged in at the yard for the night. From what a driver tells me, the buses have go and they work reasonably well. But when it's hot, the charging will slow down to a crawl. Inductive charging creates heat - the system works essentially like a big Qi charger you might use with your phone.

New Flyer wants to push overhead charging in cities with overhead wires for trolleybuses and light rail - perfect for San Francisco, Seattle, Vancouver and other cities that have mixed trolleybus/light rail operations but the price premium between a standard trolleybus with some offline operation and a BEV with overhead charging might not be worth it.