USA Owners Manual hiding/missing info?

[acedogblast]

I have a 2009 Toyota rav4. I checked the maintenance section and I notice there are some maintenance tasks like transmission fluid drain interval is no where to be found. I know this is because Toyota claims that their transmissions are using "life time fluid" that I'm sure most people on this form know is not true. Then I thought about checking the Canadian Toyota website and download the manual. I was surprised to see that they say that ATF should be replaced on all models every 72 months or 96,000km (about 60,000 miles). There is also more detailed info on when to change other fluids that most non-car people don't know about. Why is the USA owners manual not as detailed? Are other brands like this too?

Edit: I rechecked the USA manual and it did say inspect the ATF at 72 month or 60,000 miles but not outright to replace it.

 

[hatt]

Accountants write the manuals.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by hatt
Accountants write the manuals.


According to the thin vs. thick threads, it's the engineers that apparently write the owners manuals

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by hatt
Accountants write the manuals.


According to the thin vs. thick threads, it's the engineers that apparently write the owners manuals

Engineers write the rough draft and send it up the tube never to be seen again.

 

[CT8]

Lifetime oil change intervals lower the short term cost of the vehicle and reduce the waste fluids produced.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted by CT8
Lifetime oil change intervals lower the short term cost of the vehicle and reduce the waste fluids produced.

Hence often times accountants overrule engineers whilst interfacing with public , more so in CAFE world.

 

[splinter]

Originally Posted by acedogblast
...Why is the USA owners manual not as detailed?

Yanks just aren't quite as sharp as other folk?

"If it's out of its warranty it's not our problem."
"Ours are so inexpensive to own and operate!"

"What to leave in...what to leave out." -Bob Seger

 

[Dave9]

In an ideal world, sure the idealized fluid change interval would be shorter and/or spec'd.

In the real world, most people with that attention to detail, are either selling it before the change interval omission causes a problem (except in Hondas) or know they need to do so every few dozens of 10K miles.

Obviously no fluid is good for "life", nor does an informed owner really need the owners manual at all to determine change intervals as it depends more on the use environment unless there is a known poor design like some (cough)Honda (/cough) transmissions. Why do I pick on Honda? Because they're great vehicles outside of their transmissions.

It is true though, that if you don't operate the vehicle in a manner that excessively heats up the fluid, then modern tranny fluid can go 200K mi. If your use heats it up more, it will decrease its longevity, even drastically so if you near the breakdown temperature. Vehicles don't yet have a tranny fluid temp sensor with computer calculations for lifespan like oil so it is on the owner to make an informed judgement based on the operating environment.

If you are operating the vehicle in such a way that your fluid is getting hot enough that the lifespan is degraded, odds are you bought the wrong vehicle for your needs. There is a reason so many different vehicle exist, yet buyers fall in love with something not quite relevant to long life then complain later.

 

[supton]

Lots of threads on the subject. IMO most vehicles will go 200k, or at least out of warranty, without an issue. Too many people never touch the transmission oil and have wracked up impressive miles--the OEM's notice this and are willing to gamble their reputation a bit on that datapoint, knowing that most new car buyers will trade out of a car long before then.

 

[Astro14]

Isn't there legislation that requires manufacturers to provide an estimate of maintenance costs on new car sales?

If so, then "adjusting" the required maintenance for that market enables some manufacturers to compare favorably on a maintenance cost comparison...

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by CT8
Lifetime oil change intervals lower the short term cost of the vehicle and reduce the waste fluids produced.





And , in the long run , someone sells mor vehicles and / or parts .

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Astro14
Isn't there legislation that requires manufacturers to provide an estimate of maintenance costs on new car sales?

If so, then "adjusting" the required maintenance for that market enables some manufacturers to compare favorably on a maintenance cost comparison...


No. Only fuel costs.

 

[Pelican]

Well the marketing department knows how americans dislike performing maintenance and pay for it. (no offence meant) So they override the engineers' recommendations and come up with a compromise. This also applies to the motor oil where in Europe & Australia they recommend a higher viscosity oil, but for us due to CAFE we have oils that are not quite as good as the engineers would like. The best weapon is "Knowledge" so that one can make his/her own informed decisions. I know that once out of warranty I'll be using a higher viscosity synthetic oil.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Pelican
Well the marketing department knows how americans dislike performing maintenance and pay for it. (no offence meant) So they override the engineers' recommendations and come up with a compromise. This also applies to the motor oil where in Europe & Australia they recommend a higher viscosity oil, but for us due to CAFE we have oils that are not quite as good as the engineers would like. The best weapon is "Knowledge" so that one can make his/her own informed decisions. I know that once out of warranty I'll be using a higher viscosity synthetic oil.


Not really. The Europeans arguably have had stricter FE and emissions requirements vs the US. The Europeans via the ACEA got behind extended drain intervals in the 1990's, created an ACEA FE spec (A5 & B5) in 2002, and rolled out the ACEA Cx (emissions friendly) spec in 2004. They have since moved towards thinner (20w) oils. Yes the Germans are running 20w oils on the autobahn.

The US market is different from Europe. The US market is more demanding because of the climate, the amount of and type of miles driven, and length of time a vehicle is kept in service.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Pelican
Well the marketing department knows how americans dislike performing maintenance and pay for it. (no offence meant) So they override the engineers' recommendations and come up with a compromise. This also applies to the motor oil where in Europe & Australia they recommend a higher viscosity oil, but for us due to CAFE we have oils that are not quite as good as the engineers would like. The best weapon is "Knowledge" so that one can make his/her own informed decisions. I know that once out of warranty I'll be using a higher viscosity synthetic oil.


Not really. The Europeans arguably have had stricter FE and emissions requirements vs the US. The Europeans via the ACEA got behind extended drain intervals in the 1990's, created an ACEA FE spec (A5 & B5) in 2002, and rolled out the ACEA Cx (emissions friendly) spec in 2004. They have since moved towards thinner (20w) oils. Yes the Germans are running 20w oils on the autobahn.

The US market is different from Europe. The US market is more demanding because of the climate, the amount of and type of miles driven, and length of time a vehicle is kept in service.

Europeans on average drive smaller cars. Americans love pickup trucks and SUVs. That has a huge effect on fuel economy.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by Pelican
Well the marketing department knows how americans dislike performing maintenance and pay for it. (no offence meant) So they override the engineers' recommendations and come up with a compromise. This also applies to the motor oil where in Europe & Australia they recommend a higher viscosity oil, but for us due to CAFE we have oils that are not quite as good as the engineers would like. The best weapon is "Knowledge" so that one can make his/her own informed decisions. I know that once out of warranty I'll be using a higher viscosity synthetic oil.


Not really. The Europeans arguably have had stricter FE and emissions requirements vs the US. The Europeans via the ACEA got behind extended drain intervals in the 1990's, created an ACEA FE spec (A5 & B5) in 2002, and rolled out the ACEA Cx (emissions friendly) spec in 2004. They have since moved towards thinner (20w) oils. Yes the Germans are running 20w oils on the autobahn.

The US market is different from Europe. The US market is more demanding because of the climate, the amount of and type of miles driven, and length of time a vehicle is kept in service.

Europeans on average drive smaller cars. Americans love pickup trucks and SUVs. That has a huge effect on fuel economy.

But smaller cars tend to have smaller sumps, so (on average) the time between oil changes (oil or trans) should be similar, no?

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by supton
Lots of threads on the subject. IMO most vehicles will go 200k, or at least out of warranty, without an issue. Too many people never touch the transmission oil and have wracked up impressive miles--the OEM's notice this and are willing to gamble their reputation a bit on that datapoint, knowing that most new car buyers will trade out of a car long before then.



^^^^^^

This is exactly right. I have 263k miles on my car with the original CVT fluid in the car... Zero problems. The one thread on here had a guy with a Toyota truck I believe and he didn't mess with his transmission fluid until 386k miles were on it.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by supton

But smaller cars tend to have smaller sumps, so (on average) the time between oil changes (oil or trans) should be similar, no?


Depends on the car. My wife's 2002 Civic with the 1.7L engine has a change of 3.2-3.4 quarts and a total capacity of 4.4 quarts. My dad's old Buick Regal with the 3800 Series II engine had about a 4.2 quart change, but I'm not sure about the total capacity.

A lot is about the ACEA standards meant for longer drains. Don't they need to be more stable and require a higher TBN?

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by bbhero
Originally Posted by supton
Lots of threads on the subject. IMO most vehicles will go 200k, or at least out of warranty, without an issue. Too many people never touch the transmission oil and have wracked up impressive miles--the OEM's notice this and are willing to gamble their reputation a bit on that datapoint, knowing that most new car buyers will trade out of a car long before then.



^^^^^^

This is exactly right. I have 263k miles on my car with the original CVT fluid in the car... Zero problems. The one thread on here had a guy with a Toyota truck I believe and he didn't mess with his transmission fluid until 386k miles were on it.

Some recommendations are to inspect at regular intervals, which implies changing the fluid if somehow unsuitable. I remember Dexron ATF would turn brown and possibly even smell burnt when worn. There was no recommended change interval for my dad's 1996 Regal unless used for towing or other extreme use, where 50k miles was recommended. And a change was usually less than 40%.