Updated M1 FS 0w-40 - More PAO

What is the actual difference between GTL and PAO? Would there be a noticeable difference between the two?
GTL based oils provide lower Noack, higher HTHS, good cold performance. But PAO has better cold performance regardless that GTL is stout too. What I have noticed is that Pennzoil GTL based pils have substantial drop in flash point even though there is no fuel dilution.
 
My individual quarts from late 2019 are 6294, and the jug I have from April 2020 is also.
It is also possible that ExxonMobil doesn't consider the swapping of GTL Group III with petroleum-based Group III a formulation change because the specs, except for the pour point, are identical, and API allows base-oil interchange under their so-called interchangeability guidelines. The add pack would have to be identical.
 
It is also possible that ExxonMobil doesn't consider the swapping of GTL Group III with petroleum-based Group III a formulation change because the specs, except for the pour point, are identical, and API allows base-oil interchange under their so-called interchangeability guidelines. The add pack would have to be identical.
When did the pour point change because its been -60 on the pds as long as ive looked at that oil which is about 2 years now
 
Because, maybe, the bottom fell out of the NG supply market with the current administration's "affection" for fracking and drove the cost sky high.
Well not for Shell’s Pearl plant at least. They are using stranded gas from the world’s largest reserve that was otherwise flared on-site.

What SOPUS charges for the end product is another story but it’s not because of the raw material.
 
When did the pour point change because its been -60 on the pds as long as ive looked at that oil which is about 2 years now
The site didn't previously show Pour Point. This snap is from July of 2020:
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 9.59.32 AM.jpg
 
The change of the PAO content and switching from GTL to non-GTL Group III are minor things, which probably don't even count as a formulation change. What I am curious is that why the M1 0W-40 still hasn't updated to an API SP additive pack. Or is it that the new base oil goes with the API SP additive pack, which isn't on the shelves yet?
 
Well not for Shell’s Pearl plant at least. They are using stranded gas from the world’s largest reserve that was otherwise flared on-site.

What SOPUS charges for the end product is another story but it’s not because of the raw material.
I met XOM’s country manager in a Korean shipyard a few years back … he said going with long term LNG contracts over GTL was ringing the cash register just fine …
However - a long term contract is likely much lower than current NG prices …
 
GTL based oils provide lower Noack, higher HTHS, good cold performance. But PAO has better cold performance regardless that GTL is stout too. What I have noticed is that Pennzoil GTL based pils have substantial drop in flash point even though there is no fuel dilution.
I think you are painting a bit broadly there ;)

It's a bit more nuanced than that if we look at the info we have available:
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 10.35.11 PM.jpg


Compared to:
1. Yes, lower VI, but, same Noack, higher flash point, massively lower pour point and CCS:
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 10.41.03 PM.jpg


2. Again, lower VI, but lower Noack, higher flash point, much lower pour point:
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 10.41.35 PM.jpg


3. Lower VI once again, but interesting reversal on the Noack. Higher flash point, lower CCS and pour point:
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 10.42.17 PM.jpg


:)
 
What I am curious is that why the M1 0W-40 still hasn't updated to an API SP additive pack.
this oil is long past its glory days. shell was the only one that bothered with an SP add pack for ancient 10 TBN euro oils

esp x3 is mobil’s new flagship
 
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this oil is long past its glory days. shell was the only one that bothered with an SP add pack for ancient 10 TBN euro oils

esp x3 is mobil’s new flagship
I wouldn't consider any 0W-40 oil a flagship. Due to the extreme stretch between the two numbers, the base oil is typically thin and it doesn't protect against valvetrain and timing chain wear as well as a 5W-30 or 5W-40 or even a 0W-30 of the same category does. It is also typically loaded with VII. If the manufactures allows it, I would go with a 5W-30 of the recommended approval level for the least wear, smoothest engine response, and least engine deposits.
 
I wouldn't consider any 0W-40 oil a flagship. Due to the extreme stretch between the two numbers, the base oil is typically thin and it doesn't protect against valvetrain and timing chain wear as well as a 5W-30 or 5W-40 or even a 0W-30 of the same category does. It is also typically loaded with VII. If the manufactures allows it, I would go with a 5W-30 of the recommended approval level for the least wear, smoothest engine response, and least engine deposits.
that’s why c3 5w30s are being fielded by vw and mb for their highest performance cars…not

this post crashed and burned
 
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that’s why c3 5w30s are being fielded by vw and mb for their highest performance cars…not

this post crashed and burned
For extreme-performance cars, a 0W-40 is not the best choice—actually worse than a C3 5W-30. For those cars, there is Castrol 10W-60 with HTHS = 5.2 cP and HTFS = 3.0 cP, and there is Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 with HTHS = 4.4 cP and HTFS = 2.7 cP.

HTHS, HTFS (base-oil viscosity), and VII content of selected oils
 
For extreme-performance cars, a 0W-40 is not the best choice—actually worse than a C3 5W-30. For those cars, there is Castrol 10W-60 with HTHS = 5.2 cP and HTFS = 3.0 cP, and there is Mobil 1 FS X2 5W-50 with HTHS = 4.4 cP and HTFS = 2.7 cP.

HTHS, HTFS (base-oil viscosity), and VII content of selected oils

So why has VAG released 511.00 and Porsche C40 for their high performance applications? All based on 0w40 oils?

Mobil1 ESP X3 0w40 is reccomended by GM for the Corvette is it not?

Yep. 0w40 oils are awful.
 
So why has VAG released 511.00 and Porsche C40 for their high performance applications? All based on 0w40 oils?

Mobil1 ESP X3 0w40 is reccomended by GM for the Corvette is it not?

Yep. 0w40 oils are awful.
And two examples justify optimal oil selection by OEMs.

If you or your OEM think you need a SAE xW-40 oil, go with a 5W-40, not a 0W-40. A 0W-40 typically has a thinner base oil than a C3 xW-30 and the HTHS is about the same. With a 5W-40, you will typically get both a thicker base oil and a higher HTHS.

The SAE viscosity grade is meaningless when it comes to wear protection. What matters are the HTHS and HTFS.
 
And two examples justify optimal oil selection by OEMs.

If you or your OEM think you need a SAE xW-40 oil, go with a 5W-40, not a 0W-40. A 0W-40 typically has a thinner base oil than a C3 xW-30 and the HTHS is about the same. With a 5W-40, you will typically get both a thicker base oil and a higher HTHS.

The SAE viscosity grade is meaningless when it comes to wear protection. What matters are the HTHS and HTFS.

If it meets the specification you require or is approved then what's the issue? The likleyhood is the 0w oil will be formulated using 'better' basestocks and VII's.
 
If it meets the specification you require or is approved then what's the issue? The likleyhood is the 0w oil will be formulated using 'better' basestocks and VII's.
There are different viscosity grades for an approval. Besides, if you were satisfied with the approval stamps and didn't care about brand and viscosity choices, you wouldn't be reading this forum.

That's not how oil formulation works. They use the same VII across the viscosity grades, as the type of VII is dictated by the engine-deposits requirements of a given approval. Your statement should be corrected as "0W-40 is formulated using thinner base stocks (a thinner base oil) and more VII." I already explained the reason for this in this thread, and you can read the explanation (basically added VII increases the MRV so that the base-oil viscosity must be reduced to compensate for that). See my table for the VII content and base-oil viscosity to see how different oils compare. Again, a 0W-40 will typically be thinner and result in more wear than a C3 5W-30 using the same additive package. A 5W-40 should be thicker than both and result in least wear. If you are starting the car on the Alps, sure, use 0W-40. You may see a slightly better base oil with 0W-40 than a 5W-40 for a given approval. My favorite Euro viscosity grade is C3 5W-30, as it has an HTHS the same as that of a 0W-40, a thicker base oil, and a lot less VII. It will also experience less permanent shear due to lower VII content and will have a higher HTHS with used oil. I don't know why Porsche insists on C40 as opposed to C30, as the HTHS and base-oil viscosities are not higher for a C40 than for a C30. Old habits die hard. Classic models require xW-50 and xW-60, which makes sense.

 
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There are different viscosity grades for an approval. Besides, if you were satisfied with the approval stamps and didn't care about brand and viscosity choices, you wouldn't be reading this forum.

That's not how oil formulation works. They use the same VII across the viscosity grades, as the type of VII is dictated by the engine-deposits requirements of a given approval. Your statement should be corrected as "0W-40 is formulated using thinner base stocks (a thinner base oil) and more VII." I already explained the reason for this in this thread, and you can read the explanation (basically added VII increases the MRV so that the base-oil viscosity must be reduced to compensate for that). See my table for the VII content and base-oil viscosity to see how different oils compare. Again, a 0W-40 will typically be thinner and result in more wear than a C3 5W-30 using the same additive package. A 5W-40 should be thicker than both and result in least wear. If you are starting the car on the Alps, sure, use 0W-40. You may see a slightly better base oil with 0W-40 than a 5W-40 for a given approval. My favorite Euro viscosity grade is C3 5W-30, as it has an HTHS the same as that of a 0W-40, a thicker base oil, and a lot less VII. It will also experience less permanent shear due to lower VII content and will have a higher HTHS with used oil. I don't know why Porsche insists on C40 as opposed to C30, as the HTHS and base-oil viscosities are not higher for a C40 than for a C30. Old habits die hard. Classic models require xW-50 and xW-60, which makes sense.

But they aren't formulated the same. The above assumes that they won't swap out cheaper base oils with the narrower spread, but that's exactly what they do. Look at these the below 5w-40 Euro example blended with PAO and AN:
Screen Shot 2018-05-07 at 6.13.53 PM.png

Now, let's compare to these Group III examples:
Screen Shot 2021-11-23 at 9.34.46 PM.png


MUCH higher VII content.

In fact, if we then compare to a few different 0w-40's:

1. Group III + PAO, low BOV, but VII load is actually lower than the above Yubase examples:
Screen Shot 2019-02-04 at 11.31.42 PM.png


2. PAO/AN based. BOV balances to about the same as our Group III 5w-40's, VII load about the same:
Screen Shot 2019-02-04 at 11.31.11 PM.png


3. PAO/Ester based, BOV is actually higher than the Group III 5w-40's, VII load is lower:
Screen Shot 2018-05-07 at 6.07.34 PM.png


In all instances except the Yubase + PAO blend, the two base oil viscosities used are the same in the 0w-40 and our Group III 5w-40.

So, if the 5w-40's were being blended with straight or mostly PAO, like Mobil shows in the last two tables, yes, the BOV of the base oil blend would be higher and VII load lower, but we know that typical 5w-40's aren't blended that way. If we look at Castrol for example, their 5w-40 is straight Group III, while their 0w-40 is predominantly PAO-based.

This is the chasm between idealized blending philosophy and large, capitalist oil companies using the cheapest bases they can get away with while meeting the performance targets. If you go Unicorn shopping and buy something like Ravenol 5w-40, it should be blended more similar to the last table, but what you buy from Mobil, Shell, Valvoline or Castrol is going to be heavy on the Group III.

The wildcard seems to be the constant shuffling of the bases used in M1 FS 0w-40. Recently being 50-60% Group III with 10-20% PAO, similar to Formula M 5w-40, which is also 50-60% Group III (but they don't list the remaining base, so who knows what that is (could be EHC)), now 30-40% PAO.

In fact Mobil shows that you can get away with a good slug of 5cSt Group II+ in a 5w-40:
Screen Shot 2021-11-24 at 9.52.51 AM.png

And even a bit more EHC 5cSt in a C3 5w-30:
Screen Shot 2021-11-24 at 9.54.36 AM.png


It comes down more PAO in the base oil blend is going to mean less VII, you can't just go by the spread, because you may end up with the same VII content due to the bases selected to make the product blending more cost effective.
 
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I think you are painting a bit broadly there ;)

It's a bit more nuanced than that if we look at the info we have available:
View attachment 78943

Compared to:
1. Yes, lower VI, but, same Noack, higher flash point, massively lower pour point and CCS:
View attachment 78944

2. Again, lower VI, but lower Noack, higher flash point, much lower pour point:
View attachment 78945

3. Lower VI once again, but interesting reversal on the Noack. Higher flash point, lower CCS and pour point:
View attachment 78946

:)
I am painting broad picture just bcs. practical question. What does it mean among Euro oil we use? That was the question.
 
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There are different viscosity grades for an approval. Besides, if you were satisfied with the approval stamps and didn't care about brand and viscosity choices, you wouldn't be reading this forum.

That's not how oil formulation works. They use the same VII across the viscosity grades, as the type of VII is dictated by the engine-deposits requirements of a given approval. Your statement should be corrected as "0W-40 is formulated using thinner base stocks (a thinner base oil) and more VII." I already explained the reason for this in this thread, and you can read the explanation (basically added VII increases the MRV so that the base-oil viscosity must be reduced to compensate for that). See my table for the VII content and base-oil viscosity to see how different oils compare. Again, a 0W-40 will typically be thinner and result in more wear than a C3 5W-30 using the same additive package. A 5W-40 should be thicker than both and result in least wear. If you are starting the car on the Alps, sure, use 0W-40. You may see a slightly better base oil with 0W-40 than a 5W-40 for a given approval. My favorite Euro viscosity grade is C3 5W-30, as it has an HTHS the same as that of a 0W-40, a thicker base oil, and a lot less VII. It will also experience less permanent shear due to lower VII content and will have a higher HTHS with used oil. I don't know why Porsche insists on C40 as opposed to C30, as the HTHS and base-oil viscosities are not higher for a C40 than for a C30. Old habits die hard. Classic models require xW-50 and xW-60, which makes sense.

You are painting broad picture here (to use Overkill’s terminology:)). 5W30 C3 has same minimum HTHS requirement, doesn’t mean it will have same HTHS. M1 0W40 is in that ballpark, Castrol for example is bit higher.
C40 oils have pretty stout HTHS, mostly at or above 3.8. Don’t forget, Porsche is still using 5W50 oils.
 
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