UOAs with Fram Ultra compared to others
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Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Unless you have gigantic particles I think the UOA is pretty accurate. Particles larger than 5 microns can get sucked up into the AA machine. They are still microscopic. 5 microns is barely bigger than a bacteria cell.
None of the labs used by members here use AA for analysis. AA was replace decades ago with ICP_OES.
I guess I'm wrong on this in that case. I didn't think of the atomization. I thought just sucked up the oil into a flame in an Atomic Absorbance spectrometer.
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Unless you have gigantic particles I think the UOA is pretty accurate. Particles larger than 5 microns can get sucked up into the AA machine. They are still microscopic. 5 microns is barely bigger than a bacteria cell.
None of the labs used by members here use AA for analysis. AA was replace decades ago with ICP_OES.
I guess I'm wrong on this in that case. I didn't think of the atomization. I thought just sucked up the oil into a flame in an Atomic Absorbance spectrometer.
Originally Posted By: paulri
Ed, I tried reading that post a couple of times. Gonna try again tomorrow morning with lotsa coffee.
Be sure and follow the link. The article shows things graphically and may help you understand. Feel free to ask if you need any clarification.
Ed
Ed, I tried reading that post a couple of times. Gonna try again tomorrow morning with lotsa coffee.
Be sure and follow the link. The article shows things graphically and may help you understand. Feel free to ask if you need any clarification.
Ed
Originally Posted By: paulri
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Unless you have gigantic particles I think the UOA is pretty accurate. Particles larger than 5 microns can get sucked up into the AA machine. They are still microscopic. 5 microns is barely bigger than a bacteria cell.
I looked for AA in the sticky for abbreviations, but didn't see it. OK what does that mean?
Atomic Absorption Spectrometry
AA or AAS
Inductively Coupled Plasma Optical Emission Spectrometry ICP-OES
AA is a single element analysis. Each element has to be run one at a time. ICP-OES is a simultaneous method. All of the elements of interest can be run in a single run, provided a single set of parameters give you the required detection limit. This is why we can have cheap UOA's.
AA uses a flame that is below the vaporization point of all but the lowest boiling point metals. Particles of Fe, Al, Pb, NI, Cu, etc. will not be seen as they remain particles in the flame and are not reduced to individual atoms that are needed to be counted in the analysis.
The plasma used in ICP-OES is hot enough to reduce any particle that makes it through the induction system to individual atoms, so the analysis will be more accurate than AA.
Neither is capable of providing the quality of data that would be needed to tell the difference between oil filters or the presence or absence of an oil filter. Both are designed to analyze metals in solution(single atoms). Oil as analyzed by typical UOA is a suspension.
Ed
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Unless you have gigantic particles I think the UOA is pretty accurate. Particles larger than 5 microns can get sucked up into the AA machine. They are still microscopic. 5 microns is barely bigger than a bacteria cell.
I looked for AA in the sticky for abbreviations, but didn't see it. OK what does that mean?
Atomic Absorption Spectrometry
AA or AAS
Inductively Coupled Plasma Optical Emission Spectrometry ICP-OES
AA is a single element analysis. Each element has to be run one at a time. ICP-OES is a simultaneous method. All of the elements of interest can be run in a single run, provided a single set of parameters give you the required detection limit. This is why we can have cheap UOA's.
AA uses a flame that is below the vaporization point of all but the lowest boiling point metals. Particles of Fe, Al, Pb, NI, Cu, etc. will not be seen as they remain particles in the flame and are not reduced to individual atoms that are needed to be counted in the analysis.
The plasma used in ICP-OES is hot enough to reduce any particle that makes it through the induction system to individual atoms, so the analysis will be more accurate than AA.
Neither is capable of providing the quality of data that would be needed to tell the difference between oil filters or the presence or absence of an oil filter. Both are designed to analyze metals in solution(single atoms). Oil as analyzed by typical UOA is a suspension.
Ed
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That needs to be a sticky, Ed.
Exactly, metals that show up in an ICP (or an AA for that matter) aren't going to be trapped by the filter regardless of the efficiency. It would be like dissolving a metal in an acid and then trying to filter it out. It's not going to happen.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Doesn't a UOA test only a tiny amount of the oil from the total, no nook and cranny particles, no settled out particles, just mid stream at that second particles? The lab test from the filter maker seems better.
If you are looking at metal levels from a UOA (as determined by ICP) then it wouldn't matter where the oil comes from, it would be evenly distributed throughout the oil. The metal is more or less dissolved into the oil, it's not going to be concentrated in one location. There aren't "particles".
Doesn't a UOA test only a tiny amount of the oil from the total, no nook and cranny particles, no settled out particles, just mid stream at that second particles? The lab test from the filter maker seems better.
If you are looking at metal levels from a UOA (as determined by ICP) then it wouldn't matter where the oil comes from, it would be evenly distributed throughout the oil. The metal is more or less dissolved into the oil, it's not going to be concentrated in one location. There aren't "particles".
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Metal is not dissolved in oil. It is wearing off your engine parts as particles by a physical wear process.
Yes, but essentially one atom at a time (or very small agglomerations) unless there is something seriously wrong with your engine. Way too small to be filtered out, and the metal will be evenly distributed throughout the oil.
We had this discussion a while back as to what the maximum particle size was that could be detected via ICP or AA. Only individual atoms will be excited and emit the characteristic radiation wavelength of the element.
Metal is not dissolved in oil. It is wearing off your engine parts as particles by a physical wear process.
Yes, but essentially one atom at a time (or very small agglomerations) unless there is something seriously wrong with your engine. Way too small to be filtered out, and the metal will be evenly distributed throughout the oil.
We had this discussion a while back as to what the maximum particle size was that could be detected via ICP or AA. Only individual atoms will be excited and emit the characteristic radiation wavelength of the element.
Oil filters sold for cars won't filter molecule sized particles, and a sample from the middle of a draining oil stream isn't showing what's in the rest of the engine, so I have my conclusions on the value of UOA's and oil filter efficiency. But it isn't going to be a popular opinion around here.
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