Unintended harm of subsidizing electric cars

Doesn't work like that. Look it up Form 8936. The only way around not getting any tax credit is to manufacture a tax liability before tax year end to deduct the credit from. I had to take money from my IRA to create a tax liability as I already withheld more than enough for the year. The EV tax credit is deducted from a tax liability only. If you owe no tax or get a refund you get nothing. I guess this is the third time I have to say it.
Well, yeah. If you have no tax liability of course the credit will do nothing for you. You must have taxes owed in order to credit against them...... 🤨

Exactly like I said, "whichever is lower". So if you owed $0, that is lower and that's what you'll get from the credit.
 
Similar to the unintended harm from subsidizing oil companies to the tune of $20 billion a year.
That subsidy goes into your grocery products.
Feel free to lobby your representative to increase that price of groceries.
Also it goes in the electricity you use at night, when all the solar is down. I guess you don't need A/C at night.

Because everyone knows brownouts are synonymous with unicorn farts……..
If you have three houses connected to one overhead transformer, and all three decide to plug in their cars with fast chargers... what do you thing will happen? Those transformers are sized with certain diversity in mind, based on historical data of household usage.
The utilities never sized those for 100% usage.
IMO if the electric car owners want to install fast chargers, they should be made to pay an upgrade fee for their electric service, since it wasn't approved initially for that use. Not dump it into "everyone pays" bucket.
 
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Imp4 said:
Also, high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather, rather, it usually occurs during hot weather when everybody runs a/c


This is both true and irrelevant in the context of the analysis in the article posted by OP.
I'm sure we could all find exceptions to my statements, but the current discussion refers to the original article (where Canada was never part of the discussion).

Not trying to be rude, but that's the problem with making sweeping generalizations and then expecting the audience to infer that they, perhaps only in part, are narrowly confined to being in reference to a specific scenario and not more broadly.

You've made two claims in this thread so far:

1. That coal wasn't cheap, with no mention of this being specific to the article in question, and quoted Lazard, who of course is in no way connected to the article. You've since made no attempt to indicate that this was only confined to the OP, so I can only conclude that this was indeed designed to be taken as I have done, which is as overarching generalization about economics.

This then clashes with your position taken with respect to your follow-up statement:

2. That high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather. Again, not specifying that this statement was meant to apply only to the article in the OP and not more broadly (despite coming off as a broad statement) but you've now decided to position yourself with respect to this generalization being contextually limited to the OP since it is flagrantly false when applied more broadly, examples of which I've provided thusly.

I would suggest taking pause, and thinking for a second about the fact that perhaps this conversation about the economics and environmental impacts of EV operation presented in a specific scenario, or set of scenarios, might in fact benefit from allowing that dialogue to organically expand beyond those confines and folding-in data from other markets and locations where those assumptions may not only align poorly, but be downright impossible would actually work to bolster your criticisms and claims as to its bias and cherry-picked nature.

I feel that my focus on some of your statements has made you stand-offish and that was not my intention. I'm trying to further the discussion and provide meaningful data.
 
Well, yeah. If you have no tax liability of course the credit will do nothing for you. You must have taxes owed in order to credit against them...... 🤨

Exactly like I said, "whichever is lower". So if you owed $0, that is lower and that's what you'll get from the credit.
I have to look at it again. My case is different as I have no w-2, retired. I know I had to do the ira thing. I had to fine tune the no withholding distribution to exactly come out to I owe the ev credit amount. Or I get less than the credit. I had already withheld taxes during the year for other ira distributions. Those didn’t count.
 
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You have no tax liability if you have withheld the full amount owed during the year. Form 8936, Form 1040, line 18. You have to have a tax liability owed on the 1040.

Alright friend, believe what you want. I'm done trying to explain to you the difference between tax liability and taxes owed after withholdings.
 
Alright friend, believe what you want. I'm done trying to explain to you the difference between tax liability and taxes owed after withholdings.
I understand what you are saying. I understood withholding reduces taxes 50 years ago, more than that. How old are you? If under 60 I knew the function of withholding before you were born. Now you have to say you are done explaining it to me. I didn’t need it explained. My topic was the ev tax credit. It isn’t the type of tax credit like many people think.
You have to owe at least as much tax to get the credit. My personal case was different than most. Maybe I did the taxes wrong and I didn’t have to take the ira distribution. Anyway I got the distribution and glad I could get it out tax free. All good as Captain Kirk would say.
 
Not trying to be rude, but that's the problem with making sweeping generalizations and then expecting the audience to infer that they, perhaps only in part, are narrowly confined to being in reference to a specific scenario and not more broadly.

You've made two claims in this thread so far:

1. That coal wasn't cheap, with no mention of this being specific to the article in question, and quoted Lazard, who of course is in no way connected to the article. You've since made no attempt to indicate that this was only confined to the OP, so I can only conclude that this was indeed designed to be taken as I have done, which is as overarching generalization about economics.

This then clashes with your position taken with respect to your follow-up statement:

2. That high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather. Again, not specifying that this statement was meant to apply only to the article in the OP and not more broadly (despite coming off as a broad statement) but you've now decided to position yourself with respect to this generalization being contextually limited to the OP since it is flagrantly false when applied more broadly, examples of which I've provided thusly.

I would suggest taking pause, and thinking for a second about the fact that perhaps this conversation about the economics and environmental impacts of EV operation presented in a specific scenario, or set of scenarios, might in fact benefit from allowing that dialogue to organically expand beyond those confines and folding-in data from other markets and locations where those assumptions may not only align poorly, but be downright impossible would actually work to bolster your criticisms and claims as to its bias and cherry-picked nature.

I feel that my focus on some of your statements has made you stand-offish and that was not my intention. I'm trying to further the discussion and provide meaningful data.
This is a thread. We talk about the subject of the thread that the OP started.
My posts in the thread have been about the original topic, which is why I posted them here.

I would suggest that if If you'd like to discuss Canadian energy prices, please start a Canadian energy price thread.
 
Doesn't work like that. Look it up Form 8936. The only way around not getting any tax credit is to manufacture a tax liability before tax year end to deduct the credit from. I had to take money from my IRA to create a tax liability as I already withheld more than enough for the year. The EV tax credit is deducted from a tax liability only. If you owe no tax or get a refund you get nothing. If you owe $50, you get $50 credit. I guess this is the third time I have to say it.
Tax credits have nothing to do with withholding. It has to do with tax liability for the year.
Withholding is pre-paid tax.
You get a tax credit up to $7,500. If your tax liability for the year was $5,000 and you had $10,000 withheld, you would get $5,000 tax credit. Your return would be $10,000 because your net tax liability for the year would be zero.
 
I understand what you are saying. I understood withholding reduces taxes 50 years ago, more than that. How old are you? If under 60 I knew the function of withholding before you were born. Now you have to say you are done explaining it to me. I didn’t need it explained. My topic was the ev tax credit. It isn’t the type of tax credit like many people think.
You have to owe at least as much tax to get the credit. My personal case was different than most. Maybe I did the taxes wrong and I didn’t have to take the ira distribution. Anyway I got the distribution and glad I could get it out tax free. All good as Captain Kirk would say.
I know I said I was done, but I'm going to give this one more try.........That's not how any of this works. Withholding does not reduce taxes owed. Withholding is a vehicle for paying your tax liability.

A tax credit is a tax credit. They all work the same once the amount of the credit is figured. They credit against the liability for the filing. The EV tax credit works the same as a renewable energy tax credit, or a child tax credit, or any other tax credit. It is credited to the liability. If the liability is under the credit amount, the liability is reduced to zero, if the liability is over the credit amount the liability is reduced by the full credit amount.
 
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Technically, you two guys are arguing the same thing. And... is a bit off-topic.
Government gives one money by allowing him not to pay the fair share of taxes, just because he bought an EV. That means a bigger tax load on everyone else, since the budget remains the same.
 
The unintended harm of subsidizing electric vehicles is that it increases inequality by subsidizing the rich. There are no cheap Tesla's and if you can afford a $75,000 new car than you don't need that $ X,000 government subsidy/tax refund/etc to make it happen. The government and society in general would be better served if those subsidies didn't exist as there would be more government revenue to spend on things like roads, hospitals and schools and rich folks would keep on buying subsidy free Tesla's.
 
This is a thread. We talk about the subject of the thread that the OP started.
My posts in the thread have been about the original topic, which is why I posted them here.

I would suggest that if If you'd like to discuss Canadian energy prices, please start a Canadian energy price thread.

Everything mentioned is germane to the subject of the thread, the fact you've got your panties in a massive wad at this juncture is your problem, not mine. I'll continue to engage with the subject matter as I see fit, if this is going to cause you increased discomfort I suggest exercising the use of the ignore feature.
 
IMO if the electric car owners want to install fast chargers, they should be made to pay an upgrade fee for their electric service, since it wasn't approved initially for that use. Not dump it into "everyone pays" bucket.

I think you'll find that most people that charge their EV at home use the 50A dryer plug (that's what I had installed). Nobody is looking to install a DC fast charger in their driveway, a 50A (38A actual IIRC) plug, which is no different than for a stove, dryer or central air is more than sufficient to arrive at a full SoC overnight.

However, you are right in the sense that if overall load for a given distribution segment increases significantly, the equipment won't be able to handle it and this will require both transmission and transformer upgrades, costs which are recouped either through rates, or through a separate charge on your electric bill, which would be "delivery" here in Ontario.
 
a 50A (38A actual IIRC) plug, which is no different than for a stove
Again, for a stove or dryer there is a certain "diversity" of the loads. Nobody cooks or dries clothes in the same exact time, for more than 3 hours at a time.
The chargers might do that.

Incidentally, the 80% reduction of the circuit breaker allowance applies only to continuous loads, that's defined more than 3 hours. A range or dyer don't usually work non-stop for 3 hours.
 

From the article:

Norway offers an example of EV policy that reduces emissions. First, increasing purchases and use of electric vehicles in Norway means reduced emissions because they draw electricity from the country’s grid that is 98% renewable (mostly hydroelectric). Second, the centerpiece of Norwegian policy is to make gasoline cars more expensive. Gasoline cars are subject to a carbon tax, weight tax, and 25% sales tax. These can add up to a roughly 50% tax rate, while EVs are completely exempt. There are plenty of soft incentives as well, from cheaper parking to reduced tolls and access to public transit lanes.

Is this replicable? In some ways, perhaps. But most countries (including the U.S.) lag far behind Norway in their financial disincentives for gasoline cars and do not have the ready access to clean energy that Norway enjoys.

Norway is also relatively small and sparsely populated. It has a population of 5.4 million, which is less than the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) and a footprint of ~385,000sq-km (149,000sq-miles), in comparison, Texas is 695,000sq-km (268,000sq-miles) with 29 million people.

Large-scale hydro simply isn't viable everywhere, that's obstacle number 1, and sources that do work to effectively reduce emissions from fossil fuels have been white elephants (Vogtle for example) in recent years. Quebec flooded an area the size of the state of Florida for the James Bay Project, so it isn't like large scale hydro doesn't have environmental impacts either.

Carbon taxation is a controversial subject and really only makes sense if you are already in a position where the forcing of people into alternatives via this mechanism are:
A. Not crippling economically (cheap electricity, cheap EV's)
B. Sufficient charging and electricity infrastructure are in place to support it (this is clearly not the case in most places at this time)
C. The grid is suitably low emissions for this to make sense.

Achieving all three of these goals simultaneously is exceedingly difficult. California has insane electricity prices, wickedly high fuel prices and a grid that's a disaster. It's failing on all three of these fronts.

Charging an electric vehicle in colder environments can emit more CO2 than driving an equivalent gasoline car. Scientists have known for years that ambient temperature can dramatically affect the battery range of electric vehicles. One main reason is that battery charging is less efficient in cold temperatures, with energy losses between 15% and 20% at 19°F. Furthermore, EV heating and cooling is drawn from the same battery as EV propulsion, so when the temperature is cold, the battery range can be reduced by as much as 25% to 60%. In places such as Minneapolis, where winters are cold and coal is the marginal source of electricity generation, driving a mile in an electric vehicle can be worse for the climate than driving a gasoline car.

And in some places it doesn't, despite the cold. Alberta for example, where the largest source is gas, followed by coal and they see below -30C regularly probably isn't a great place to be pushing, let alone subsidizing EV's. Quebec on the other hand, which sees similar temperatures, has a very low emissions grid and extremely low electricity prices, so it isn't surprisingly that this is one of the places with the highest uptake of EV's despite these limitations (impact on range from running the heat for example, and cold temperature in general).

The embedded link mentions C2G emissions, which is discussed in more depth in somewhat recent thread of mine.
 
Everything mentioned is germane to the subject of the thread, the fact you've got your panties in a massive wad at this juncture is your problem, not mine. I'll continue to engage with the subject matter as I see fit, if this is going to cause you increased discomfort I suggest exercising the use of the ignore feature.
Sorry, no need to ignore because there's zero concern on my end. Unfortunately you appear to have concocted a dust up in your own mind.

I'm good with where we both stand in the current circumstances.

Cheers!
 
Again, for a stove or dryer there is a certain "diversity" of the loads. Nobody cooks or dries clothes in the same exact time, for more than 3 hours at a time.
The chargers might do that.

Incidentally, the 80% reduction of the circuit breaker allowance applies only to continuous loads, that's defined more than 3 hours. A range or dyer don't usually work non-stop for 3 hours.

Yes, and I agreed with that point in general, as you can see. However, a 38A draw by itself isn't a huge issue, or even a few of them, it's the equivalent of a few people on the street doing several loads of laundry at the same time, or perhaps cooking dinner.

And yes, the EV charger falls under that category, hence the 38A figure, I recall @JeffKeryk posted a screenshot of what his Model 3 draws, which was similar to what my e-tron drew as well.

I think it important to note though that most EV's won't be charging for significant periods of time. If you plug-in every night, you are only recouping the day's use, which may only take 45 minutes, depending on how much you drive. The e-tron had a 94kWh battery with a range of ~325km; 0.29kWh/km. If my daily tooling around town (work, service calls...etc) totalled about 30km, that would only be 8.7kWh, which, at a 240V 38A charge rate would take less than an hour.
 
I want to drive a car that emission is in someone else's backyard, or a gas car that wars are fought in someone else's country. I don't know, whatever is the cheapest I guess.

Seriously, I don't care about EV emission or gas emission by too much as long as they are doing the best they can with reasonable technology today. Subsidies yeah that is a trade off between who pays what and you will always see someone crying unfair because they are paying too much gas vs too much toll road, or too much in defense spending vs too much fuel tax to fund defense, or too high of energy cost and job going oversea vs too high in tax to subsidize rich industrial tycoons.

The argument I want to make is, we really don't care about emission, or our nation would not be full of crew cab and large SUV hauling urban cowboys with their virtual plywood and 2x4. We also don't care about cost or else we would have all been driving Camrys and Accord everywhere instead of those crew cabs and SUVs.

EV isn't perfect and it is not great for cold climate if your electricity source is not clean, however gasoline engine unless it is a hybrid isn't really that great either. It has gotten a lot better now and can stand on its own 2 feet now, EV will do that very soon too. China is betting the whole nation on it because importing oil is a national security risk for them, they will probably over invest in that and the rest of the world reaps the benefits.
 
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