Unintended harm of subsidizing electric cars

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I think you are grossly unde

I think you are grossly miss-estimating here. A typical home in the US uses a bit more than a 1000 kilowatt hours a month. Charging a Tesla for 2000 miles of driving (typical monthly miles for a household) will use about 500 kilowatt hours (24kWh per mile).

My volt measured off the wall (using a wall mount meter +/- .05%) is using 70kwhrs a month ($7)

I average below 200 watt hours per mile year round

People who own plug ins drive fewer miles than average, Wisconsin EV owners only manage a little under 5000 miles a year and for that they get the $$$$ taxed out of them.

The average “home” includes small apartments, in Wisconsin if my electrically heated neighbor is an indication (medium sized electrically heated home) can easily top 7000kwhr a month

076F247D-16C7-4997-9618-716639AA4C1B.jpeg
 
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Basically you are subsidizing a car for people who dont need the subsidy. In our state we also offer heavily discounted registrations and renewals for people that don't need the subsidy.
I can agree with that. I see EVs all over the place in the town I work at, driven by people who have insane amounts of disposable income and hardly even flinch at the cost of what they want in a car. Regular folks on a budget are not quite in the wheelhouse of EV prices, even when subsidized. But, that will change a lot over the next 10 years as EV prices drop, possibly even or lower than ICE.
 
the math there is bad.

its closer to .33 kwh per mile. not 24.. also not sure how you got 24kWh per mile when you say 500kWh is 2000miles.

Also I dont think 24000 miles a year is average.. closer to 1000-1400
You're right, I missed the decimal, but the final figure is the same. 2000 x .24 is ~500. If we used the .33 per mile figure, it's even higher. As for the 24k miles per household per year, that is actually fairly conservative. I looked it up and the latest data says that the average miles per driver is 14.5k miles per year... and since most households have multiple drivers, the 24k estimate will be close enough to see the shape of things.

The bottom line is that switching from gas to EV will increase household electrical consumption by ~50%.


https://www.bts.gov/statistical-pro...sehold-travel-survey-daily-travel-quick-facts
 
My volt measured off the wall (using a wall mount meter +/- .05%) is using 70kwhrs a month ($7)

I average below 200 watt hours per mile year round

People who own plug ins drive fewer miles than average, Wisconsin EV owners only manage a little under 5000 miles a year and for that they get the $$$$ taxed out of them.
Interesting. I guess that makes sense with a Leaf as they have such a short range. That would make it hard to rack up a lot of miles as it's got to spend so much time plugged in.

Comparing EV to gas cars is not an apples to apples comparison, it seems. I would guess that a significant slice of EV drivers also have a gas car in the household that gets driven a lot of miles as well.
 
All the EV owners I know have an ICE car as well. I sure do.
For the "regular folks", the Model 2 is in the works. 2023 maybe? But that's Elon years, which might mean anything.
 
I think you are grossly unde

I think you are grossly miss-estimating here. A typical home in the US uses a bit more than a 1000 kilowatt hours a month. Charging a Tesla for 2000 miles of driving (typical monthly miles for a household) will use about 500 kilowatt hours (24kWh per mile).
You're right, I missed the decimal, but the final figure is the same. 2000 x .24 is ~500. If we used the .33 per mile figure, it's even higher. As for the 24k miles per household per year, that is actually fairly conservative. I looked it up and the latest data says that the average miles per driver is 14.5k miles per year... and since most households have multiple drivers, the 24k estimate will be close enough to see the shape of things.

The bottom line is that switching from gas to EV will increase household electrical consumption by ~50%.


https://www.bts.gov/statistical-pro...sehold-travel-survey-daily-travel-quick-facts
That site is confusing… they say “daily travel” is ~14,500 per person per year, but scroll down a bit and they say the “average driver” drives 29 miles per day, which would come out to 10,585 miles per year.
 
Similar to the unintended harm from subsidizing oil companies to the tune of $20 billion a year.

No technology is perfect.
No technology is a panacea.

You also 'forgot' to mention that your linked article assumes both very cold environments and coal generated electricity used to address marginal load demand (the most expensive kind of demand to meet. Nobody that is sane likes to turn coal furnaces on and off, its too expensive).
It's a good thing that coal usage is on the decline then, wouldn't you agree?

And coal is expensive anyway. Where'd the authors get the idea it generated electricity inexpensively? Especially when used to address marginal load like they claim here. The limited circumstances under which they draw their conclusions are not representative of the whole of the marketplace. The mental gymnastics used to justify their position are to be admired if only for effort alone.

In other words they are cherry picking data and selecting special circumstances and then drawing broad conclusions based on those cherry picked assumptions.

Sad.

Coal is cheap, be careful relying on Lazard, that's the reason China and developing nations have so much of it. Coal plants also last a VERY long time.

In this chart:
Screen Shot 2021-07-15 at 10.02.19 PM.webp


Pay attention to the fine print for coal, #5, which states:
Represents the midpoint of the marginal cost of operating coal and nuclear facilities, inclusive of decommissioning costs for nuclear facilities. Analysis assumes that the salvage value for a decommissioned coal plant is equivalent to its decommissioning and site restoration costs. Inputs are derived from a benchmark of operating coal and nuclear assets across the U.S. Capacity factors, fuel and variable and fixed operating expenses are based on upper and lower quartile estimates derived from Lazard’s research. Please see page titled “Levelized Cost of Energy Comparison—Renewable Energy versus Marginal Cost of Selected Existing Conventional Generation” for additional details

That's $0.033/kWh, which is insanely cheap.

When you get to point #6 for coal, which is in respect to the LCOE figure it states:
High end incorporates 90% carbon capture and compression. Does not include cost of transportation and storage

So yeah, it's pretty easy to drive the cost up when you assume things like carbon capture and storage, which aren't happening, particularly not in the 3rd world.

Then we get to this chart:
Screen Shot 2021-07-15 at 10.11.58 PM.webp


You can see that $0.045/kWh of the lower end figure of $0.066/kWh for coal is to cover CAPEX for installed capacity, which, in the case of Lazard, assumes a 20 operating life for the sake of comparison. While that may be a realistic figure for a wind turbine, that's not for a coal plant, many of which are currently triple that and may be amortized using state debt over a longer period.

And of course 1MW of coal is not equivalent to 1MW of solar because of capacity factor which, while roughed into these calculations, varies wildly based on geography, so that skews things further. Then, when we are talking about emerging economies where the Russians or Chinese are building these plants that cost isn't anywhere near as high. Just like the cost for China producing coal plants domestically.

The US is currently licensing nukes for 80 years now. So, you amortize your wind farm over 20 years and then you have to replace it, because the financing period roughly aligns with the lifespan. You amortize your nuke over 30 years, and then you have 50 more years of generation after the plant is paid off. This isn't factored into LCOE. And then of course, as noted at the beginning of the presentation itself, it doesn't factor in capacity value, which, for some sources like wind, can approach zero.
 
For sure. Too many people think that electricity comes from rainbows and unicorn farts. There are places in the US where plugging in three more Tesla's will cause brown outs (a slight exaggeration).

Because everyone knows brownouts are synonymous with unicorn farts……..
 
Coal is cheap, be careful relying on Lazard, that's the reason China and developing nations have so much of it. Coal plants also last a VERY long time.
Coal has historically been cheap, however, it gets more expensive every day relative to other sources.
If you sell something for $1.00 and I can buy it elsewhere for $1.25, then what you see is cheap.

If you sell something for $1.00 and I can buy it elsewhere for $0.90, then what you sell is expensive.

Additionally, keep in mind that the authors completed their analysis with the assumption that coal was used to meet marginal load demand, i.e., peak demand where extra generating capacity is required.
This is rarely done with coal because it requires the starting and stopping of the boilers as demand changes over time. And it is expensive.

Also, high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather, rather, it usually occurs during hot weather when everybody runs a/c.

So again, the assumptions and analysis were cherry picked. Then broad market conclusions were drawn based on the cherry picked information.
 
Coal has historically been cheap, however, it gets more expensive every day relative to other sources.
Also, high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather, rather, it usually occurs during hot weather when everybody runs a/c.

So again, the assumptions and analysis were cherry picked. Then broad market conclusions were drawn based on the cherry picked information.

High demand is regional

Due to poor decisions to electrically heat every new McMansion some areas have discovered that in bad weather (cold) they don’t really have adequate generating capacity even if everything works properly.

In Wisconsin which is a NG stronghold it is estimated our grid would need to be oversized 5x from current if a significant number of homes became electrically heated.

Thankfully most folks don’t want a $700+ February “heating bill” and usually shy away from pure electric heat
 
Coal has historically been cheap, however, it gets more expensive every day relative to other sources.

As you can see from the graphic, the cost to run a coal plant in the US is about $0.033/kWh, which is wickedly cheap for a source that's typically used for baseload. A CCGT is cheaper to build and operate in that environment however, but that's not the case globally.
Additionally, keep in mind that the authors completed their analysis with the assumption that coal was used to meet marginal load demand, i.e., peak demand where extra generating capacity is required.

I'm not arguing as to the merit or lack thereof of the points made in the article, I'm just pointing out that one needs to be careful using the figures from Lazard, based on the explanation I provided above. Claiming coal is expensive isn't accurate, which is, when you dig into it, even supported by the Lazard figures, in the US, what is even cheaper is natural gas however. In places like China and the 3rd world where LNG infrastructure isn't as extensive or may not exist at all, coal is still the low cost baseload generator of choice unfortunately.
This is rarely done with coal because it requires the starting and stopping of the boilers as demand changes over time. And it is expensive.

Yes, peaking is typically handled by gas plants of the single cycle nature where available. Recall, I've written several threads on power generation here, this isn't a foreign subject to me.

However, that said, prior to the fracked gas boom, coal was often used for load following where required. Many parts of Australia still do this, with coal being the dominant source of energy that must be ramped up and down with demand shifts.

In more recent years coal plants in these locations have had to deal with not only the traditional ramp cycles but new ones that demand greater flexibility as wind and solar capacity have been introduced. This is much harder on the plants and has caused failures. We are seeing this with gas plants as well, having to chase the output profiles of intermittent sources has impacted the lifespan of components and reliability, this is one of the reasons Texas had so much gas capacity offline for maintenance recently (far more than was planned) because wear and tear has outpaced the projections/expectations.
Also, high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather, rather, it usually occurs during hot weather when everybody runs a/c.

That varies wildly by region and, if applied to many parts of Canada, would be wholly incorrect. Ontario has two peak seasons: Summer and Winter with pronounced lulls in the spring and fall. Quebec is similar, but their winter peak is actually higher than their summer peak because most people in the province heat with electricity.

Winter electricity demand will, not surprisingly, follow the use of electricity for heating.
So again, the assumptions and analysis were cherry picked. Then broad market conclusions were drawn based on the cherry picked information.

Again, I'm not opposed to the criticism of the article, but we need to be consistent and ensure the integrity of those criticisms. If you'd like to discuss more of the nuance in relation to the points I've made I'd be glad to.
 
High demand is regional

Due to poor decisions to electrically heat every new McMansion some areas have discovered that in bad weather (cold) they don’t really have adequate generating capacity even if everything works properly.

In Wisconsin which is a NG stronghold it is estimated our grid would need to be oversized 5x from current if a significant number of homes became electrically heated.

Thankfully most folks don’t want a $700+ February “heating bill” and usually shy away from pure electric heat

Like with gas heating up here, most utilities offer equal billing for electricity to soften the blow (I heat with gas, I use equal billing which is about $150/month).

Of course electric heating is being encouraged now because it is pitched as being more "green" than gas, but this is, in many cases, in conjunction with electricity costs that have increased significantly in places that have subsidized certain sources in order to artificially increase their rate of integration. Not surprisingly, the take-up rate has been dismal as folks aren't willing to spend significantly more money to perform the same task.
 
The $7500 is credit for owed taxes. Unless it is planned that you owe $7500 at the end of the year, you don't get the whole $7500 or any of it. If you withheld all your taxes to have a zero tax liability like most try to do, then buy an ev at the end of the year, you get nothing. The credit was started in 2008 as IRC 30D.
It is not fair to say every electron an ev uses is polluting the air. They pollute nothing in their local use area, the power generating source being centralized and regulated. A/C is the big user in summer, turn off your A/C and save the planet, and the car A/C too. No one thinks like that about A/C. Or electric heat, stove, cell phone chargers, computers, on and on. Why the sudden concern about air pollution by adding another electrical appliance? Is your PC polluting the air right now as you log on to BITOG? Look around, is it all hazy?
 
Imp4 said:
Also, high demand rarely comes into the picture in cold weather, rather, it usually occurs during hot weather when everybody runs a/c

That varies wildly by region and, if applied to many parts of Canada, would be wholly incorrect. Ontario has two peak seasons: Summer and Winter with pronounced lulls in the spring and fall. Quebec is similar, but their winter peak is actually higher than their summer peak because most people in the province heat with electricity.
This is both true and irrelevant in the context of the analysis in the article posted by OP.
I'm sure we could all find exceptions to my statements, but the current discussion refers to the original article (where Canada was never part of the discussion).
 
The $7500 is credit for owed taxes. Unless it is planned that you owe $7500 at the end of the year, you don't get the whole $7500 or any of it. If you withheld all your taxes to have a zero tax liability like most try to do, then buy an ev at the end of the year, you get nothing. The credit was started in 2008 as IRC 30D.
No. The $7,500 is a tax credit. It lowers your tax liability regardless of what you owe (or get a return) on tax day.
 
No. The $7,500 is a tax credit. It lowers your tax liability regardless of what you owe (or get a return) on tax day.
Yes. It works as I stated. I did one. It's there to look up on the IRS website. If you have no tax liability or get a refund, you get nothing. If you owe $50 in tax, you get a $50 EV tax credit. It's not always $7500 either, it depends on the battery size.
 
Of course electric heating is being encouraged now because it is pitched as being more "green" than gas,


I quoted this portion of your comment because in some areas now natural gas installations are now banned. So it’s more than a “pitch” for some.

Even in the PNW where hydro production makes our electricity cheaper relative to other places, gas is cheaper by far.
 
Yes. It works as I stated. I did one. It's there to look up on the IRS website. If you have no tax liability or get a refund, you get nothing. If you owe $50 in tax, you get a $50 EV tax credit. It's not always $7500 either, it depends on the battery size.
Getting a refund doesn't mean you didn't owe any taxes. If you are getting a refund, that means you overpaid on the taxes you owed at year's end and this tax credit should increase that refund amount up to the full amount paid through withholdings or add $7500 to the refund sans the credit, whichever is lower.
 
Getting a refund doesn't mean you didn't owe any taxes. If you are getting a refund, that means you overpaid on the taxes you owed at year's end and this tax credit should increase that refund amount up to the full amount paid through withholdings or add $7500 to the refund sans the credit, whichever is lower.
Doesn't work like that. Look it up Form 8936. The only way around not getting any tax credit is to manufacture a tax liability before tax year end to deduct the credit from. I had to take money from my IRA to create a tax liability as I already withheld more than enough for the year. The EV tax credit is deducted from a tax liability only. If you owe no tax or get a refund you get nothing. If you owe $50, you get $50 credit. I guess this is the third time I have to say it.
 
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