Understanding the Economics of a Chevy Volt?

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I gotta ask why nobody even asks about the pink elephant sitting in the room? If temperatures stay over 90º for 3 days, they start cutting back power because all the air conditioners come on.

Now we're goona' charge our 3,000# cars for a 40 mile trip every day? Not bloody likely! The grid would need a total make-over.
 
Originally Posted By: H2GURU
I gotta ask why nobody even asks about the pink elephant sitting in the room? If temperatures stay over 90º for 3 days, they start cutting back power because all the air conditioners come on.

Now we're goona' charge our 3,000# cars for a 40 mile trip every day? Not bloody likely! The grid would need a total make-over.


The difference is that you are talking peak demand in the middle of the day. The cars are most likely to be charge at off peak time in the middle of the night. Power companies at night will actually pump water to a higher elevation as away to store excess power they produce at night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped_storage
 
Actually the electric cars are part of the grid make over. Charge them at night, and feed the power back to the grid in the afternoon peak.
 
OK I'm not really savvy on the whole electric car issue, so bear with me. Why wouldn't it be theoretically possible to forget about heavy and expensive batteries that don't hold much energy and need charging, and just somehow connect cars to the grid while they are in operation? Why couldn't this be done since electrical power is ran along most roads already? And maybe the power line could be buried in the road and power the electric car by induction? Sort of like the concept of trolleys cars and buses and subways. I'm sure there are issues with doing this, but seems like getting rid of the heavy batteries and their limited capacity would be a plus.
 
Batteries have a limited number of cycles. Does this grid make over include having the power company own the batteries and replace them when they fail, or do you get the bear the cost of premature battery replacement?

Ed
 
Drill here, drill now, figure out the rest at our leisure.

The whole carbon footprint mania is silly on a lot of fronts, but I suppose that isn't directly the point of this conversation.

Don't get too confused with the car manufacturers pushing out hybrids and such, as though they want to join your "save the world" campaign as well. This movement is driven by 99% profit.
The whole proposal is quid pro quo, and the logistics of the entire world dashing to energy "independence" is not very well thought out.
 
Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
Drill here, drill now, figure out the rest at our leisure.

I don't think you do buy alot of time using up all your domestic oil at the current rate, maybe not enough time to figure out and implement a better energy system? Especially if the US sticks its head in the sand until oil hits $300/barrel? Gets awful expensive to do anything with energy that costly... Even building windmills.

Originally Posted By: BeanCounter

Don't get too confused with the car manufacturers pushing out hybrids and such, as though they want to join your "save the world" campaign as well. This movement is driven by 99% profit.
The whole proposal is quid pro quo, and the logistics of the entire world dashing to energy "independence" is not very well thought out.

I don't really see a downside to personal or community energy independence, more sources of power can only help moderate prices by eliminating layers of big business. They will fight againist this of course and try any kind of disinformation campaign they think they can get away with. Having 100's of millions of people dependent on fossil fuel puts alot of money in their pockets every quarter... Having people with a solar panels on their roof and an electric car has got to be stopped and almost at any cost for them.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

I don't think you do buy alot of time using up all your domestic oil at the current rate, maybe not enough time to figure out and implement a better energy system? Especially if the US sticks its head in the sand until oil hits $300/barrel? Gets awful expensive to do anything with energy that costly... Even building windmills.


What size oil supply are you assuming is present?
Will oil increase domestically if we produce domestically, decreasing the need to have it shipped in like you project?

I think you likely underestimate the oil we have access too. I, personally, would rather pay less and buy time through our own economy versus allowing OPEC and each arab nation to determine what the output and "supply" is at their convenience.

Quote:
I don't really see a downside to personal or community energy independence, more sources of power can only help moderate prices by eliminating layers of big business. They will fight againist this of course and try any kind of disinformation campaign they think they can get away with. Having 100's of millions of people dependent on fossil fuel puts alot of money in their pockets every quarter... Having people with a solar panels on their roof and an electric car has got to be stopped and almost at any cost for them.


No no, you have my position all wrong.
I am against pocket-laden global warming theory apologists trying to force our great nation to burden its people politically.

I think it is great if individuals want to choose an energy alternative because it is better for them. But let the economy promote this, not a government that has already broken the bank. Remember, private dollars are just that, but government dollars are yours and mine. The nice part about a free market economy (ideally...) is that when gas reaches that aforementioned $300...new replacement technologies have already been released. But government intervention in this process rarely aids in timely, efficient, and effective results. This is why we haven't seen everyone jump on the alternative energy boat. We have the White House and Congress trying to ram legislation down our throats when the $2.40 price tag isn't persuasive enough to make us bail out (via "studies" and "projections" that universities and institutions so graciously release to us). Supply and demand are much more punctual, and less costly to us all in the long run.

The implications of these other energy sources are another issue, but I have little to no problem with them occurring via private enterprise than I do through government-funded myth assertions that are simply making a select group rich and empowering politicians who wish to render us useless while spending our hard-earned dollars.
 
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With 10+million barrerls of new Iraqi oil per day coming to the market in the next few years $30 barrel per oil is more likely than $300 per barrel oil.

On the other hand personal effiency is never a bad thing.

The less oil we need per dollar of GDP the better.

The market mechanism is much better at determining how and when to improve effiency than the federal government ever will.
 
Don't forget the opportunity cost of paying an upfront premium for something that's more efficient. Instead of buying a Volt, you could buy a cheaper car that gets worse "fuel" economy, and invest the savings. This is obviously dependent on the person's financial discipline and savvy, but for me personally I always find that the opportunity cost can never ever be recovered when buying something more efficient whether it's a water heater or solar panels or anything. I always end up buying the cheaper option.
 
I know for a fact that in the early 2000's GM was convinced that hybrids would fundamentally never be economic. This may be another bonehead decision or they may prove to be right. So far, I would say that the jury is still out.

Ford thinks that incremental improvement of conventional technology will be much more cost effective than hybrids. My gut tells me they are right. Otherwise diesel hybrids would be common in europe.
 
Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

I don't think you do buy alot of time using up all your domestic oil at the current rate, maybe not enough time to figure out and implement a better energy system? Especially if the US sticks its head in the sand until oil hits $300/barrel? Gets awful expensive to do anything with energy that costly... Even building windmills.


What size oil supply are you assuming is present?
Will oil increase domestically if we produce domestically, decreasing the need to have it shipped in like you project?

I think you likely underestimate the oil we have access too. I, personally, would rather pay less and buy time through our own economy versus allowing OPEC and each arab nation to determine what the output and "supply" is at their convenience.

It would be nice to pay less for oil produced on home soil but its now a global market and I don't think the companies that control the oil market will ever allow this. Canada exports more oil to the US than any other country yet our fuel costs are higher before taxes?

Quote:
I don't really see a downside to personal or community energy independence, more sources of power can only help moderate prices by eliminating layers of big business. They will fight againist this of course and try any kind of disinformation campaign they think they can get away with. Having 100's of millions of people dependent on fossil fuel puts alot of money in their pockets every quarter... Having people with a solar panels on their roof and an electric car has got to be stopped and almost at any cost for them.


Quote:
No no, you have my position all wrong.
I am against pocket-laden global warming theory apologists trying to force our great nation to burden its people politically.

I think it is great if individuals want to choose an energy alternative because it is better for them. But let the economy promote this, not a government that has already broken the bank. Remember, private dollars are just that, but government dollars are yours and mine. The nice part about a free market economy (ideally...) is that when gas reaches that aforementioned $300...new replacement technologies have already been released. But government intervention in this process rarely aids in timely, efficient, and effective results. This is why we haven't seen everyone jump on the alternative energy boat. We have the White House and Congress trying to ram legislation down our throats when the $2.40 price tag isn't persuasive enough to make us bail out (via "studies" and "projections" that universities and institutions so graciously release to us). Supply and demand are much more punctual, and less costly to us all in the long run.

For some reason these days, all the market does is create bubbles of paper wealth which burst and cost real jobs... Tech, energy/food commodities, and now housing... The market seems only think in the short term, is greedy, and maybe stupid(expecting constant exponential growth on a finite planet comes to mind). So I'm not really confident that somehow we'll have the technology and investment ready to switch over to renewable energy reasonably smoothly when the time comes without some government help.

Originally Posted By: BeanCounter
[The implications of these other energy sources are another issue, but I have little to no problem with them occurring via private enterprise than I do through government-funded myth assertions that are simply making a select group rich and empowering politicians who wish to render us useless while spending our hard-earned dollars.

Well, the US seems to have no problems muddling around in the middle east and the world spending trillions to keep the oil flowing for a select few companies? Why not spend some at home?
 
Originally Posted By: DeeAgeaux

The market mechanism is much better at determining how and when to improve effiency than the federal government ever will.


This is the epitome of "hitting the nail on the head".
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan

It would be nice to pay less for oil produced on home soil but its now a global market and I don't think the companies that control the oil market will ever allow this. Canada exports more oil to the US than any other country yet our fuel costs are higher before taxes?


I'm sure the corp's will not seclude themselves to the U.S., but more supply, less transportation costs, less markup by the arabs...cannot lead to anything but more independence and lower costs, from an unadulterated economic standpoint.

Quote:
For some reason these days, all the market does is create bubbles of paper wealth which burst and cost real jobs... Tech, energy/food commodities, and now housing... The market seems only think in the short term, is greedy, and maybe stupid(expecting constant exponential growth on a finite planet comes to mind). So I'm not really confident that somehow we'll have the technology and investment ready to switch over to renewable energy reasonably smoothly when the time comes without some government help.


Remember, I am referring more to "economics" than I am "market" in the sense that you are discussing. These bubbles and supposed short-comings of the market are due to speculation and manipulation of the market. Take OPEC making any sort of statement about oil for example...the market fluctuates due to speculation that production is going to go up or down. Does this mean their oil is drying up? No. Does this mean that we know for a fact what their output in the future will be when all is said and done? No. It is simple speculation, which throws kinks in the natural economic behavior of supply and demand. (Hence why I have paid $3.50+ for a gallon of gas in the past year or two when S&D were not as affected as that price would reflect.)

Quote:
Well, the US seems to have no problems muddling around in the middle east and the world spending trillions to keep the oil flowing for a select few companies? Why not spend some at home?


The is a separate, personal belief issue, but yes, let's get oil here if it sends less money overseas.
 
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