Ultra 0w40 burns off faster...

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Amazingly many engines run 300 & 400K miles on any oil that would pour through the oil filler without issues...


Correct but if you are an assiduous reader of BITOG, you will quickly discover that there are quite a lot of engines out there that have hit problems with sudden excessive oil consumption at 50,000 miles or so. Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Subaru and most famously of all, Audi, have all suffered. I am frankly amazed that these OEMs are accepting the costs of remediation when they really should be questioning the quality of some of the more extreme examples of GF-5 oil that are on the market.

 

[Olas]

If it is DEFINITELY burning off then your engine needs repairing. Oil should not enter the combustion chamber except in times of mechanical failure.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
SanPro, thanks for the update.

Joe90, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you would be an advocate for catch cans? We don't know what the NOACK is on PUP SRT. Do 0w40's tend to be on the lower side in comparison? With the exception of 10w30 I believe all the Pennzoil NOACKs went up considerably when they switched to GTL.

I wish PIQA would do all the 0w40s.


Let me answer your question about catch cans this way...

There are two key industry standard gasoline tests that are relevant here. The Sequence IIIG in the US that's used in GF-5 and the Peugeot TU5 test that's used in all the PCMO ACEA 'A' specs.

Both are pretty extreme tests in that they run the engine very hot with the oil temperature around 150C (302F). This temperature promotes 'oil stripping' where hot blow-by gas and crankcase purge air volatilise the light front-end of the oil. In the Sequence IIIG, this volatilised oil is routed through the PCV, into the intake and burnt in the combustion chamber. Although you seldom run the engine out of oil, and levels of oil viscosity increase are moderate you will often get horrendously black pistons. The black deposits are of course the result of burnt oil, not of classically oxidised oil.

Conversely, on the TU5, the hot, oil laden crankcase off-gas stream is not recycled through the PCV but externally condensed and disposed off. On a high Noack oil, the TU5 can easily lose all its oil in less that 75 hours (the duration of the test). The last bit of oil left can be incredibly viscous. However the upside is that the pistons are always pretty clean.

Personally I would rather see an end to the crazy 15% max Noack spec that GF-5 allows and an end to the franky barmy fuel economy specs that GF-5 demands which so distort the viscosity grades rather that resort to installing a catch can. However I doubt whether either of these things will ever happen.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Gasbuggy,
this is pulled from a Mobil blending guide, and shows broadly how things go together (not a Mobil 1 recipe book)...

In this example, the "wider spreads" for any "W" grade have lighter basestocks, and more VIIs, and greater noacks.



All of this looks as it should be except for the 5W50 numbers. Both the blend and Noack look out of kilter with the other numbers. All I can think is that they changed to a different Ad Nauseam VM for the 5W50 (Sv 261 maybe?).

Do remember that the combination of PAO and Shellvis VM gives you the lowest conceivable Noack results for any viscosity grade. Move to Group III stocks and all the Noacks tick upwards. Move to Group II and they tick a few percent more. Change away from Shellvis VM to the more widely used OCP VMs and up they go again. Dilute your VM polymer in light Group I/II as opposed to Group III (as per the table) or go 'sloppy' on CCS to get your fuel economy performance, up goes Noack again.

Once you can figure how oil blending works, you get to understand why marginal all Group II/OCP 5W30's GF-5 oils can be so toxic on volatility.

 

[Chewie]

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
SanPro, thanks for the update.

Joe90, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you would be an advocate for catch cans? We don't know what the NOACK is on PUP SRT. Do 0w40's tend to be on the lower side in comparison? With the exception of 10w30 I believe all the Pennzoil NOACKs went up considerably when they switched to GTL.

I wish PIQA would do all the 0w40s.


NOACK for the GTL 0W-40 SRT is 13%. I haven't found values for the old formulation though.

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploa...sler-en-TDS.pdf

 

[Joe90_guy]

Originally Posted By: Chewie
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
SanPro, thanks for the update.

Joe90, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you would be an advocate for catch cans? We don't know what the NOACK is on PUP SRT. Do 0w40's tend to be on the lower side in comparison? With the exception of 10w30 I believe all the Pennzoil NOACKs went up considerably when they switched to GTL.

I wish PIQA would do all the 0w40s.


NOACK for the GTL 0W-40 SRT is 13%. I haven't found values for the old formulation though.

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploa...sler-en-TDS.pdf


Speaking personally, I'd regard 13% as still too high. Folks will point to ACEA having a 13% max Noack spec, but because of the vagaries of the TU5 test, especially with OCPs, actual Noacks of commercial oils are often way lower than 13%.

PS - did you notice that while Shell/Pennzoil might be able to blend oils, they are rubbish at proof-reading product data sheets! Surely they know their CCS's from their MRV's by now!?

 

[Garak]

Someone needs to come up with a standard data sheet and have the oil companies follow it. Some companies don't distinguish between certifications and "suitable for." Others can't list real values and stick to minimums, or mix things up, as you point out. For one oil, Noack and HTHS are highly proprietary, yet for another oil from the same company, they're there. Yeesh.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Garak
For one oil, Noack and HTHS are highly proprietary, yet for another oil from the same company, they're there. Yeesh.


Meaning they'd probably be red faced if figures were in print...

 

[Gasbuggy]

Originally Posted By: Chewie
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
SanPro, thanks for the update.

Joe90, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you would be an advocate for catch cans? We don't know what the NOACK is on PUP SRT. Do 0w40's tend to be on the lower side in comparison? With the exception of 10w30 I believe all the Pennzoil NOACKs went up considerably when they switched to GTL.

I wish PIQA would do all the 0w40s.


NOACK for the GTL 0W-40 SRT is 13%. I haven't found values for the old formulation though.

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploa...sler-en-TDS.pdf


Thank you, that is high NOACK. Not sure if it matters but I read on the forums that SRT specs this for 5000 mile changes. Some people are having the OLM call for a change under 3000 miles.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Meaning they'd probably be red faced if figures were in print...

You know, I never thought of it that way, but I probably should have.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Chewie
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
SanPro, thanks for the update.

Joe90, thanks for the explanation. Sounds like you would be an advocate for catch cans? We don't know what the NOACK is on PUP SRT. Do 0w40's tend to be on the lower side in comparison? With the exception of 10w30 I believe all the Pennzoil NOACKs went up considerably when they switched to GTL.

I wish PIQA would do all the 0w40s.


NOACK for the GTL 0W-40 SRT is 13%. I haven't found values for the old formulation though.

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploa...sler-en-TDS.pdf


Yet NOACK for the new GTL Pennzoil Ultra Euro / Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 is almost half that at 6.8 %

Pennzoil Ultra Euro/SHU 5W-40 TDS

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Someone needs to come up with a standard data sheet and have the oil companies follow it. .


I'll vote for you !!

Get in and make it law.

 

[Chewie]

Originally Posted By: SR5


Yet NOACK for the new GTL Pennzoil Ultra Euro / Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 is almost half that at 6.8 %

Pennzoil Ultra Euro/SHU 5W-40 TDS


That looks like a technical data sheet for a pre-GTL formulation. A couple of things make me think that, namely that it only says Pennzoil Ultra instead of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and it says Hyper Cleansing Technology instead of PurePlus Technology, with PurePlus indicating GTL. The data sheet is also dated January 2013.

I was able to find an old 0W-40 data sheet so we can compare apples to apples, pre-GTL 0W-40 to GTL 0W-40. NOACK for the old formulation was 10% vs. new formulation at 13%.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007321581_201208130853.pdf

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I'll vote for you !!

Get in and make it law.

You know, if the oil companies provided the data, I'm sure there would be BITOGers lined up to actually write the sheets correctly for them. Instead, they actually pay people for some of the messes they release to the public.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Chewie
Originally Posted By: SR5


Yet NOACK for the new GTL Pennzoil Ultra Euro / Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 is almost half that at 6.8 %

Pennzoil Ultra Euro/SHU 5W-40 TDS


That looks like a technical data sheet for a pre-GTL formulation. A couple of things make me think that, namely that it only says Pennzoil Ultra instead of Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and it says Hyper Cleansing Technology instead of PurePlus Technology, with PurePlus indicating GTL. The data sheet is also dated January 2013.

I was able to find an old 0W-40 data sheet so we can compare apples to apples, pre-GTL 0W-40 to GTL 0W-40. NOACK for the old formulation was 10% vs. new formulation at 13%.

http://www.epc.shell.com/Docs/GPCDOC_X_cbe_24855_key_140007321581_201208130853.pdf


I'm not 100% certain, but this was talked about in the Shell Helix Ultra thread in the Euro oil section. The way given to tell them apart was to look at the HTHS of the pennzoil Euro oil

Originally Posted By: edyvw

GTL should be 3.88.
3.68 is old Group III based.


One thing we do know is that any Euro oil that is MB 229.5 rated, needs a NOACK of 10% or less. So all good Euro oils should meet this requirement.

I'm not certain, but I thought the change over to GTL happened in 2013. Does anybody know for sure?

 

[SR5]

I believe this is the old stuff (non-GTL)
http://www.smithandallan.com/documents/Helix_Ultra_5W-40_%28SN_CF_A3_B4%29_%28en-GB%29_TDS_v1.pdf

And I believe this is the new GTL stuff
http://oilmart.com/data/products/pds/1245/PDS Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40.pdf

Happy to be corrected.