Do we know for sure what brands are the true synthetic oil? I mean PAO or ester oil, with zero trace of group I-III oil in it?
True Synthetic Oil
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Amsoil & Redline would be on that list... There will always be some Grp I-III somewhere in any oil because they need an additive carrier oil but I think you are looking for the least...
I do not believe that product exist for the internal combustion engine.
There are not many of those left that use 100% PAO/ester stock (at least in oils designed for modern passenger cars). Why does it matter to you so long as an oil still has substantial PAO/ester, but also has some Group III?
With new car drive-train warranties getting longer each year (Hyundai, GM, and others now offering 10-year drive-train warranties) you must change your oil at least every 5000-7500 miles, so 100% PAO/ester is not economical.
It would be useful to know which synthetics (like Castrol Syntec) are probably 100% Group III.
With new car drive-train warranties getting longer each year (Hyundai, GM, and others now offering 10-year drive-train warranties) you must change your oil at least every 5000-7500 miles, so 100% PAO/ester is not economical.
It would be useful to know which synthetics (like Castrol Syntec) are probably 100% Group III.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Amsoil & Redline would be on that list... There will always be some Grp I-III somewhere in any oil because they need an additive carrier oil but I think you are looking for the least...
I would be interested in seeing the actual claims made by either Amsoil or Redline that their oil is made from 100% PAO/ester stock. Could you provide a link or reference? They might have some product like that (or maybe not) but it must be expensive. (Note that when a manufacturer says their oil is made from PAO base stocks, that does not necessarily mean that they use 100% PAO base stocks.)
Amsoil & Redline would be on that list... There will always be some Grp I-III somewhere in any oil because they need an additive carrier oil but I think you are looking for the least...
I would be interested in seeing the actual claims made by either Amsoil or Redline that their oil is made from 100% PAO/ester stock. Could you provide a link or reference? They might have some product like that (or maybe not) but it must be expensive. (Note that when a manufacturer says their oil is made from PAO base stocks, that does not necessarily mean that they use 100% PAO base stocks.)
Quote:
[0026] It has also been discovered that replacing at least part of the mineral oil base oil or polyalpha olefin (PAO) base oil in apparatus lubricating oils, especially aviation piston engine lubricating oil compositions with one or more hydrodewaxate or hydroisomerate base stock(s) and/or base oil(s), GTL material derived base stock(s) and/or base oil(s), or mixtures thereof, preferably GTL base stock(s) and/or base oil(s), maintains the thermal and oxidative stability with sufficient solvency to reduce engine deposits provides good low temperature properties and improves resistance to corrosion. The viscometric properties of the lubricant oil composition are also improved. The lubricant oil composition also provides unexpectedly improved rust protection and has a low sulfur content.
Taken from here, originally posted by jmac here.
Translation: Group III is not a bad thing, fer cryin' out loud. Let's worry about results. We want the formulators to blend what works, not what looks good on a forum.
[0026] It has also been discovered that replacing at least part of the mineral oil base oil or polyalpha olefin (PAO) base oil in apparatus lubricating oils, especially aviation piston engine lubricating oil compositions with one or more hydrodewaxate or hydroisomerate base stock(s) and/or base oil(s), GTL material derived base stock(s) and/or base oil(s), or mixtures thereof, preferably GTL base stock(s) and/or base oil(s), maintains the thermal and oxidative stability with sufficient solvency to reduce engine deposits provides good low temperature properties and improves resistance to corrosion. The viscometric properties of the lubricant oil composition are also improved. The lubricant oil composition also provides unexpectedly improved rust protection and has a low sulfur content.
Taken from here, originally posted by jmac here.
Translation: Group III is not a bad thing, fer cryin' out loud. Let's worry about results. We want the formulators to blend what works, not what looks good on a forum.
It is my understanding that you cannot have a 100% PAO oil because of not only cost but the fact that it would not be an ideal lubricant. I know Redline is Group V with IV as well. As far as i know, RL has no group III whatsoever.
For the right application I believe a true POE/PAO oil will always outperform a group III. True for most cars it may not be needed, but for some of us Group III wannabe synthetic isnt good enough.
For the right application I believe a true POE/PAO oil will always outperform a group III. True for most cars it may not be needed, but for some of us Group III wannabe synthetic isnt good enough.
oh yeah,
Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
For the right application I believe a true POE/PAO oil will always outperform a group III. True for most cars it may not be needed, but for some of us Group III wannabe synthetic isnt good enough.
That may be true, but I think it is also important to know how much PAO is in a synthetic. I would like to know which synthetics have zero PAO and are 100% group III hydrocraked (Castrol Syntec) versus ones like M1 that have at least some PAO stock. I believe this is the more important distinction, because if one is looking for 100% PAO it is going to get very expensive and maybe not even desirable.
For the right application I believe a true POE/PAO oil will always outperform a group III. True for most cars it may not be needed, but for some of us Group III wannabe synthetic isnt good enough.
That may be true, but I think it is also important to know how much PAO is in a synthetic. I would like to know which synthetics have zero PAO and are 100% group III hydrocraked (Castrol Syntec) versus ones like M1 that have at least some PAO stock. I believe this is the more important distinction, because if one is looking for 100% PAO it is going to get very expensive and maybe not even desirable.
Originally Posted By: Mark888
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Amsoil & Redline would be on that list... There will always be some Grp I-III somewhere in any oil because they need an additive carrier oil but I think you are looking for the least...
I would be interested in seeing the actual claims made by either Amsoil or Redline that their oil is made from 100% PAO/ester stock. Could you provide a link or reference? They might have some product like that (or maybe not) but it must be expensive. (Note that when a manufacturer says their oil is made from PAO base stocks, that does not necessarily mean that they use 100% PAO base stocks.)
Did you read what I said...
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Amsoil & Redline would be on that list... There will always be some Grp I-III somewhere in any oil because they need an additive carrier oil but I think you are looking for the least...
I would be interested in seeing the actual claims made by either Amsoil or Redline that their oil is made from 100% PAO/ester stock. Could you provide a link or reference? They might have some product like that (or maybe not) but it must be expensive. (Note that when a manufacturer says their oil is made from PAO base stocks, that does not necessarily mean that they use 100% PAO base stocks.)
Did you read what I said...
Originally Posted By: StevieC
Did you read what I said...
Do they claim that the base stock before additives is 100% PAO/ester? Or after the additives, what percent is PAO/ester?
Did you read what I said...
Do they claim that the base stock before additives is 100% PAO/ester? Or after the additives, what percent is PAO/ester?
Don't forget about Motul 300V.
AeroShell® Turbine Oil 500
Originally Posted By: Max_Wander
AeroShell® Turbine Oil 500
That does not go in an internal combustion engine.
AeroShell® Turbine Oil 500
That does not go in an internal combustion engine.
Originally Posted By: AzFireGuy79
For the right application I believe a true POE/PAO oil will always outperform a group III.
Of course this is the truth. However, anyone who purchased Pennzoil Platinum on sale will disagree with you. Then the, "add package," becomes the only thing of relevance. These people want you to believe that a quart of urine with a good add package can outperform a PAO synthetic.
For the right application I believe a true POE/PAO oil will always outperform a group III.
Of course this is the truth. However, anyone who purchased Pennzoil Platinum on sale will disagree with you. Then the, "add package," becomes the only thing of relevance. These people want you to believe that a quart of urine with a good add package can outperform a PAO synthetic.
Well, any oil that meets API specs is a good oil. Sure a group 4 or 5 may be better but only if you run it out to 20K or 30K in a street car. I recently saw an oil analysis that showed that RP 0W10 produced great results but it's 16 bucks a quart. At what point does .1% better equal X amount more cost?
Originally Posted By: wannafbody
but it's 16 bucks a quart. At what point does .1% better equal X amount more cost?
GC can be had for $6 a quart. That's a mainstream price for something that is >.1% better.
but it's 16 bucks a quart. At what point does .1% better equal X amount more cost?
GC can be had for $6 a quart. That's a mainstream price for something that is >.1% better.
Art- I have to laugh because what you stated is so true with so many people these days. To each his own I guess.
Wannafbody- I would say the majority of us Group IV/V users would not fall into the 20-30K OCI category. We appreciate quality and want the best protection available. We are willing to pay the premium price for a premium product.
Wannafbody- I would say the majority of us Group IV/V users would not fall into the 20-30K OCI category. We appreciate quality and want the best protection available. We are willing to pay the premium price for a premium product.
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Of course this is the truth. However, anyone who purchased Pennzoil Platinum on sale will disagree with you. Then the, "add package," becomes the only thing of relevance. These people want you to believe that a quart of urine with a good add package can outperform a PAO synthetic.
This is a distortion. No one with a brain believes that. If they did, they'd all be using dino diesel oils.
What a Pennzoil Platinum user believes is that the total formulation, and not any one part, is what determines performance. You might disagree, but the used oil analysis are on their side.
If there's any opinion that's myopic here, it's the opinion that base stock trumps all else -- which is in effect what you're saying when you say a Group IV/V oil "will always outperform a Group III."
Of course this is the truth. However, anyone who purchased Pennzoil Platinum on sale will disagree with you. Then the, "add package," becomes the only thing of relevance. These people want you to believe that a quart of urine with a good add package can outperform a PAO synthetic.
This is a distortion. No one with a brain believes that. If they did, they'd all be using dino diesel oils.
What a Pennzoil Platinum user believes is that the total formulation, and not any one part, is what determines performance. You might disagree, but the used oil analysis are on their side.
If there's any opinion that's myopic here, it's the opinion that base stock trumps all else -- which is in effect what you're saying when you say a Group IV/V oil "will always outperform a Group III."
He never stated base stock trumps all! used oil analysis dont show which oil is better. And there are some very good group III's out there no doubt. But at the end of the day PP as good as it might be, is in a different league when compared to Redline or Amsoil, which I believe are better(in my application) from personal experience.
Don't think that I dont see the value in used oil analysis. I just have to laugh when everyone gets all crazy on an oil because it has X amount less wear than the other. Often this is not from long term trending and in a sense makes it totally worthless.
Don't think that I dont see the value in used oil analysis. I just have to laugh when everyone gets all crazy on an oil because it has X amount less wear than the other. Often this is not from long term trending and in a sense makes it totally worthless.
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