Tranny 100% drain and fill ????
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There was a recent thread about someone who did a complete fluid exchange on a well maintained GM transmission and it promptly stopped working. It involved Maxlife IIRC; Looking for it, but as much as I would disgard such reports in the past, it certainly gained the interest of many board members because it seemed to be faily well documented.
edit:fwiw
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867797&page=1
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing.
edit:fwiw
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867797&page=1
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jaxon
I kinda wonder if the debris in the old fluid helps the cluches grab, thats why i am wondering.
Thats what I read on the Bimmer forum http://forums.bimmerforums.com/ and as I said my 525i, I was told was a GM transmission.
I swear I read many cases of that happening there, slipping after a change, then failing.Many said not to do it.
I chose not to rush into it (or do it)
I kinda wonder if the debris in the old fluid helps the cluches grab, thats why i am wondering.
Thats what I read on the Bimmer forum http://forums.bimmerforums.com/ and as I said my 525i, I was told was a GM transmission.
I swear I read many cases of that happening there, slipping after a change, then failing.Many said not to do it.
I chose not to rush into it (or do it)
Originally Posted By: Jaxon
I kinda wonder if the debris in the old fluid helps the cluches grab, thats why i am wondering.
Believe me if the transmission needs debris to keep the clutches from slipping that unit has some real serious problems and needs a lot more than a fluid and filter change, its shot!
I have read and heard every horror story in the 40 yrs i have been doing this professionally but never experienced any of of them, not one in so many units i cant even count.
The ones damaged after a fluid and filter change that i have seen have all been because someone either used the wrong filer, a damaged filter or o ring, didn't fill the unit properly or someone knocked a wire off a solenoid or temp sensor.
I have never experienced any of these failures personally.
Edit: Don't forget a lot of the horror stories are from people who are changing the fluid and filter as a hail Mary pass trying to fix some issue.
I kinda wonder if the debris in the old fluid helps the cluches grab, thats why i am wondering.
Believe me if the transmission needs debris to keep the clutches from slipping that unit has some real serious problems and needs a lot more than a fluid and filter change, its shot!
I have read and heard every horror story in the 40 yrs i have been doing this professionally but never experienced any of of them, not one in so many units i cant even count.
The ones damaged after a fluid and filter change that i have seen have all been because someone either used the wrong filer, a damaged filter or o ring, didn't fill the unit properly or someone knocked a wire off a solenoid or temp sensor.
I have never experienced any of these failures personally.
Edit: Don't forget a lot of the horror stories are from people who are changing the fluid and filter as a hail Mary pass trying to fix some issue.
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Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
At the shop I go to for transmission problems the shop owner will not change transmission oil on an automatic over 100k miles period or if the car is over 8 years old. He says and this is view point, if you change out old transmission oil on aged cars or high mileage cars that never had a service, you are asking for trouble and he has been doing this for over 30 years now. But to each his own...................its your transmission, some shops will change it, and some will not. If the filter clogs up , he will save the old and pour back in and this seems to work for them. I know it does not sound correct, but hey, Im not a transmission expert.
Its not that the transmission does not need service its that the guy does not want to be liable.
It is true that new ATF can loosen so much crud it will clog up a new filter and the filter then needs to be changed. That is where a Magnefine inline filter could help.
At the shop I go to for transmission problems the shop owner will not change transmission oil on an automatic over 100k miles period or if the car is over 8 years old. He says and this is view point, if you change out old transmission oil on aged cars or high mileage cars that never had a service, you are asking for trouble and he has been doing this for over 30 years now. But to each his own...................its your transmission, some shops will change it, and some will not. If the filter clogs up , he will save the old and pour back in and this seems to work for them. I know it does not sound correct, but hey, Im not a transmission expert.
Its not that the transmission does not need service its that the guy does not want to be liable.
It is true that new ATF can loosen so much crud it will clog up a new filter and the filter then needs to be changed. That is where a Magnefine inline filter could help.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: Jaxon
I kinda wonder if the debris in the old fluid helps the cluches grab, thats why i am wondering.
Believe me if the transmission needs debris to keep the clutches from slipping that unit has some real serious problems and needs a lot more than a fluid and filter change, its shot!
I have read and heard every horror story in the 40 yrs i have been doing this professionally but never experienced any of of them, not one in so many units i cant even count.
The ones damaged after a fluid and filter change that i have seen have all been because someone either used the wrong filer, a damaged filter or o ring, didn't fill the unit properly or someone knocked a wire off a solenoid or temp sensor.
I have never experienced any of these failures personally.
Edit: Don't forget a lot of the horror stories are from people who are changing the fluid and filter as a hail Mary pass trying to fix some issue.
Agree with all of this.
I have a 2002 Grand Prix and bought it at around 135K and it just had a full ATF drain and fill. Has worked fine. That said, my recommendation is probably to do it little by little (50% at a time) since it will ease your mind and is still well worth doing.
Originally Posted By: Jaxon
I kinda wonder if the debris in the old fluid helps the cluches grab, thats why i am wondering.
Believe me if the transmission needs debris to keep the clutches from slipping that unit has some real serious problems and needs a lot more than a fluid and filter change, its shot!
I have read and heard every horror story in the 40 yrs i have been doing this professionally but never experienced any of of them, not one in so many units i cant even count.
The ones damaged after a fluid and filter change that i have seen have all been because someone either used the wrong filer, a damaged filter or o ring, didn't fill the unit properly or someone knocked a wire off a solenoid or temp sensor.
I have never experienced any of these failures personally.
Edit: Don't forget a lot of the horror stories are from people who are changing the fluid and filter as a hail Mary pass trying to fix some issue.
Agree with all of this.
I have a 2002 Grand Prix and bought it at around 135K and it just had a full ATF drain and fill. Has worked fine. That said, my recommendation is probably to do it little by little (50% at a time) since it will ease your mind and is still well worth doing.
I'd do a pan drop, change the filter and fill it up. Then drive it for 100 miles or so and drop a line and drain the fluid, or use a Miti-Vac and suck it out. Fill it up, drive a little, and repeat two more times. Maxlife ATF is fine for the application, I'd also add a bottle of Lubegard red to the final fill.
I'm from the school of thought that if the transmission fails shortly after, it had problems to begin with. Sometimes that's a bitter pill to swallow.
I'm from the school of thought that if the transmission fails shortly after, it had problems to begin with. Sometimes that's a bitter pill to swallow.
[/quote]
Jaxon.. I am not trying to scare you here bro, please don't think that I am. However, the only times I have heard of the transmission dying is at these quick-lube "trans flush" places. (Probably something to do with trans screens getting clogged up, but I am not an expert on this.)
And I think they tell you you are SOL if they do one and it's a no-pull, for whatever reason. I have heard that many are of the opinions that these machines aren't used right, and it causes problems.. I wouldn't know because I have avoided, but I hear people say NO for the same reason that "engine flushes" may cause an engine to die from clogged oil pick-up. Had a car drop a valve sometime after doing one of those. Right while I was driving, too. [/quote]
I have heard from a very knowledgeable mechanic, that many places use 1 (one) transmission flushing machine for all makes and models. They in turn do not then do any kind of cleanout of the machine. That means there could be several ounces of wrong transmission fluid going into your car. In some makes it's not too big a problem. In some, even a few ounces of improper transmission fluid could cause it to fail. I asked my Ford Dealer and he said that is why Ford and Volvo say not to use one of those machines on CVT transmissions because the CVT' s are very sensitive to tainted oil. They call for a drain and refill from properly marked containers. The transmission pans have drain plugs to facilitate the draining.
That madate came out after many of the first CVT's died prematurely and the cause was found to be mixed transmission fluid.
Jaxon.. I am not trying to scare you here bro, please don't think that I am. However, the only times I have heard of the transmission dying is at these quick-lube "trans flush" places. (Probably something to do with trans screens getting clogged up, but I am not an expert on this.)
And I think they tell you you are SOL if they do one and it's a no-pull, for whatever reason. I have heard that many are of the opinions that these machines aren't used right, and it causes problems.. I wouldn't know because I have avoided, but I hear people say NO for the same reason that "engine flushes" may cause an engine to die from clogged oil pick-up. Had a car drop a valve sometime after doing one of those. Right while I was driving, too. [/quote]
I have heard from a very knowledgeable mechanic, that many places use 1 (one) transmission flushing machine for all makes and models. They in turn do not then do any kind of cleanout of the machine. That means there could be several ounces of wrong transmission fluid going into your car. In some makes it's not too big a problem. In some, even a few ounces of improper transmission fluid could cause it to fail. I asked my Ford Dealer and he said that is why Ford and Volvo say not to use one of those machines on CVT transmissions because the CVT' s are very sensitive to tainted oil. They call for a drain and refill from properly marked containers. The transmission pans have drain plugs to facilitate the draining.
That madate came out after many of the first CVT's died prematurely and the cause was found to be mixed transmission fluid.
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Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
There was a recent thread about someone who did a complete fluid exchange on a well maintained GM transmission and it promptly stopped working. It involved Maxlife IIRC; Looking for it, but as much as I would disgard such reports in the past, it certainly gained the interest of many board members because it seemed to be faily well documented.
edit:fwiw
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867797&page=1
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing.
Was that Oil_Changer or OilChanger's thread on the Suburban trans and the Maxlife atf fluid and he blamed the Maxlife?
is that one still up?
Ok, moving on.
As to the drain/fill vs quick lube flush.. IIRC, the advice is to NEVER get a trans FLUSH. It could be that the rapid dislocation of things "kept in place" for a wholly unscientific description in some nook/cranny in the internals of the trans itself (which is big money to take out) would occur on a machine RAPIDLY changing it. But, moreso than that..
In the case of cars like this, with black/burnt/old oil-looking trans fluid.. They surely got that way, somehow, in the first place. Sure a trans is a "sealed system," they say, but alright then, how did the transmission fluid get to looking black and nasty like that? So, on transmissions like these.. I personally believe that all they need is a little lovin', and a standard drain/fill via the trans drain bolt is a great place to start. Perhaps, even the best.
So, when techs encounter a trans like that, some get scared off and issue warnings of DOOM to the owner, and they completely disregard the idea that is some new fluid (key word: gradually) got mixed in.. that the trans may have a long and happy life.
Just sayin'.
And time makes people even MORE weary, perhaps, example would be: Low-mileage, sitting car. Where the mileage makes sens,e but the time is longer, and as such it has been in there longer. Much like oil!
Just alternate views, is all. We come across them when talking to shops about issues, where the mechanics are straight out of the 60s and 70s. Happens a lot.
There was a recent thread about someone who did a complete fluid exchange on a well maintained GM transmission and it promptly stopped working. It involved Maxlife IIRC; Looking for it, but as much as I would disgard such reports in the past, it certainly gained the interest of many board members because it seemed to be faily well documented.
edit:fwiw
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2867797&page=1
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just pointing.
Was that Oil_Changer or OilChanger's thread on the Suburban trans and the Maxlife atf fluid and he blamed the Maxlife?
is that one still up?
Ok, moving on.
As to the drain/fill vs quick lube flush.. IIRC, the advice is to NEVER get a trans FLUSH. It could be that the rapid dislocation of things "kept in place" for a wholly unscientific description in some nook/cranny in the internals of the trans itself (which is big money to take out) would occur on a machine RAPIDLY changing it. But, moreso than that..
In the case of cars like this, with black/burnt/old oil-looking trans fluid.. They surely got that way, somehow, in the first place. Sure a trans is a "sealed system," they say, but alright then, how did the transmission fluid get to looking black and nasty like that? So, on transmissions like these.. I personally believe that all they need is a little lovin', and a standard drain/fill via the trans drain bolt is a great place to start. Perhaps, even the best.
So, when techs encounter a trans like that, some get scared off and issue warnings of DOOM to the owner, and they completely disregard the idea that is some new fluid (key word: gradually) got mixed in.. that the trans may have a long and happy life.
Just sayin'.
And time makes people even MORE weary, perhaps, example would be: Low-mileage, sitting car. Where the mileage makes sens,e but the time is longer, and as such it has been in there longer. Much like oil!
Just alternate views, is all. We come across them when talking to shops about issues, where the mechanics are straight out of the 60s and 70s. Happens a lot.
Originally Posted By: GearheadTool
As to the drain/fill vs quick lube flush.. IIRC, the advice is to NEVER get a trans FLUSH. It could be that the rapid dislocation of things "kept in place" for a wholly unscientific description in some nook/cranny in the internals of the trans itself (which is big money to take out) would occur on a machine RAPIDLY changing it. But, moreso than that..
Transmissions are not subjected to fuel dilution, carbon and other deposits found in engines, the heat is much less also.
Unless the unit is severely overheated there should be little varnish if any and no sludge from broken down oil.
The wear particles are from the clutches and drum for the most part and are always in motion until they go through the system and end up back in the pan.
Thats why you should always change the filter and clean the pan.
Changing all the fluid at once will not do anything that isn't happening anyway.
When you do a drain and fill new fluid is drawn into the valve body and clutch drum as the remainder of old fluid is being pushed out, it doesn't really mix til its been cycled.
Removing the rest of the fluid before it gets back to the pan makes absolutely no difference as far as letting some junk remain in the "nooks and crannies" as you say.
The only thing you end up with a drain and fill is partially cleaner oil nothing more or less. Its like changing your oil 2 qts at a time.
A worthless and money wasting job.
As to the drain/fill vs quick lube flush.. IIRC, the advice is to NEVER get a trans FLUSH. It could be that the rapid dislocation of things "kept in place" for a wholly unscientific description in some nook/cranny in the internals of the trans itself (which is big money to take out) would occur on a machine RAPIDLY changing it. But, moreso than that..
Transmissions are not subjected to fuel dilution, carbon and other deposits found in engines, the heat is much less also.
Unless the unit is severely overheated there should be little varnish if any and no sludge from broken down oil.
The wear particles are from the clutches and drum for the most part and are always in motion until they go through the system and end up back in the pan.
Thats why you should always change the filter and clean the pan.
Changing all the fluid at once will not do anything that isn't happening anyway.
When you do a drain and fill new fluid is drawn into the valve body and clutch drum as the remainder of old fluid is being pushed out, it doesn't really mix til its been cycled.
Removing the rest of the fluid before it gets back to the pan makes absolutely no difference as far as letting some junk remain in the "nooks and crannies" as you say.
The only thing you end up with a drain and fill is partially cleaner oil nothing more or less. Its like changing your oil 2 qts at a time.
A worthless and money wasting job.
Originally Posted By: dishdude
I'd drop the pan, replace the filter and gasket and refill with the spec'd fluid - no maxlife or moving up to Dex VI if it was originally Dex III. Repeat in 40,000km.
Why replace the gasket on these units?
I'd drop the pan, replace the filter and gasket and refill with the spec'd fluid - no maxlife or moving up to Dex VI if it was originally Dex III. Repeat in 40,000km.
Why replace the gasket on these units?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: dishdude
I'd drop the pan, replace the filter and gasket and refill with the spec'd fluid - no maxlife or moving up to Dex VI if it was originally Dex III. Repeat in 40,000km.
Why replace the gasket on these units?
Don't you always change gaskets when you drop the pan? (Or always change a gasket when two surfaces separate? Head, Thermostat, etc?)
Originally Posted By: dishdude
I'd drop the pan, replace the filter and gasket and refill with the spec'd fluid - no maxlife or moving up to Dex VI if it was originally Dex III. Repeat in 40,000km.
Why replace the gasket on these units?
Don't you always change gaskets when you drop the pan? (Or always change a gasket when two surfaces separate? Head, Thermostat, etc?)
Not on these transmissions. They use a high grade reusable gasket good for quite a few uses.
Every one of our fleet trucks has a nifty high quality reusable rubber gasket. Better than most aftermarket and definitely not to be discarded.
The first time should always be a pan drop and filter change as a slushbox typically generates most of its debris when newer. Then do a passive fluid exchange the next time. No true passive exchange will ever hurt a decent trans, only the nearly dead anyway ones.
I do them alternately, and we get trans life that exceeds the life of the vehicle even in extremely heavy duty service.
The first time should always be a pan drop and filter change as a slushbox typically generates most of its debris when newer. Then do a passive fluid exchange the next time. No true passive exchange will ever hurt a decent trans, only the nearly dead anyway ones.
I do them alternately, and we get trans life that exceeds the life of the vehicle even in extremely heavy duty service.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
At the shop I go to for transmission problems the shop owner will not change transmission oil on an automatic over 100k miles period or if the car is over 8 years old. He says and this is view point, if you change out old transmission oil on aged cars or high mileage cars that never had a service, you are asking for trouble and he has been doing this for over 30 years now. But to each his own...................its your transmission, some shops will change it, and some will not. If the filter clogs up , he will save the old and pour back in and this seems to work for them. I know it does not sound correct, but hey, Im not a transmission expert.
But this guy is saying he won't even change the ATF (let alone flush it all out the cooler line) over 100k miles or 8 years, but that's exactly when the manufacturer recommends the first change under normal use. Who are you going to believe?
When the weather breaks I'm doing a full service and converter drain on a 175Kmi F-150 with unknown past, currently shifts fine with no issues... Fluid is a little dirty and smells old, my guess it's orig, we'll see what happens...
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
At the shop I go to for transmission problems the shop owner will not change transmission oil on an automatic over 100k miles period or if the car is over 8 years old. He says and this is view point, if you change out old transmission oil on aged cars or high mileage cars that never had a service, you are asking for trouble and he has been doing this for over 30 years now. But to each his own...................its your transmission, some shops will change it, and some will not. If the filter clogs up , he will save the old and pour back in and this seems to work for them. I know it does not sound correct, but hey, Im not a transmission expert.
But this guy is saying he won't even change the ATF (let alone flush it all out the cooler line) over 100k miles or 8 years, but that's exactly when the manufacturer recommends the first change under normal use. Who are you going to believe?
When the weather breaks I'm doing a full service and converter drain on a 175Kmi F-150 with unknown past, currently shifts fine with no issues... Fluid is a little dirty and smells old, my guess it's orig, we'll see what happens...
Originally Posted By: Trav
The only thing you end up with a drain and fill is partially cleaner oil nothing more or less. Its like changing your oil 2 qts at a time.
A worthless and money wasting job.
And yet that's precisely the service that Honda recommends on my 1998 CR-V...a 3x drain and fill of the transmission, running through the gears a few times between drains.
Some clean fluid is better than none, and with the CR-V you are left with 87.5% clean fluid, at a cost far lower than a flush at a quick lube place.
Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good.
The only thing you end up with a drain and fill is partially cleaner oil nothing more or less. Its like changing your oil 2 qts at a time.
A worthless and money wasting job.
And yet that's precisely the service that Honda recommends on my 1998 CR-V...a 3x drain and fill of the transmission, running through the gears a few times between drains.
Some clean fluid is better than none, and with the CR-V you are left with 87.5% clean fluid, at a cost far lower than a flush at a quick lube place.
Let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good.
I think he's just saying you can accomplish the same thing ~90% fluid change and faster and using less fluid maybe 1/2 by unhooking the cooler line. It's not necessarily how Honda recommends but they'd be glad to sell you twice as much fluid.
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I think he's just saying you can accomplish the same thing ~90% fluid change and faster and using less fluid maybe 1/2 by unhooking the cooler line. It's not necessarily how Honda recommends but they'd be glad to sell you twice as much fluid.
There's a nice easy to access drain bolt for the transmission, no need to unhook hoses and take the risk, however slight, of running the transmission too low on fluid. If you think that makes me Honda's fool, OK. I'm sure Honda corporate doesn't stay up nights thinking of ways to get me to spend an extra $10-15 dollars on fluid when they didn't bother to put a filter on this model transmission, which surely would add at least $15-20 extra per transmission service.
I think he's just saying you can accomplish the same thing ~90% fluid change and faster and using less fluid maybe 1/2 by unhooking the cooler line. It's not necessarily how Honda recommends but they'd be glad to sell you twice as much fluid.
There's a nice easy to access drain bolt for the transmission, no need to unhook hoses and take the risk, however slight, of running the transmission too low on fluid. If you think that makes me Honda's fool, OK. I'm sure Honda corporate doesn't stay up nights thinking of ways to get me to spend an extra $10-15 dollars on fluid when they didn't bother to put a filter on this model transmission, which surely would add at least $15-20 extra per transmission service.
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