TP loose in Frantz filter

[1977c10phxdriver]

Changed my TP in my Frantz yesterday and this is the second time the roll has come out shorter than it went in. Also, once I remove the big snap ring, the roll just falls out. No need to use the pull wire, just "plop" and its out. I'm using genuine Frantz TP rolls. Any suggestions on how to keep them tighter and not shrinking down? They go in snug but don't stay that way.
I have Frantz's on all 3 of my vehicles.
Pressure runs at about 55 at freeway speeds and I change the rolls at 3500 to 4000 miles.

 

[sifan]

When I changed the TP for my Frantz oil bypass filter, the old TP looked just like that in your photo (one end being sucked downwards) but it was never loosed. I still needed to use the pull wire to get it out. I changes the TP every 3k miles. What is your change interval?

I have always used Frantz TPs exclusively. The most recent Frantz TPs I ordered seem to be thicker in diameter. I had a hard time to jam it into the canister while replacing the TP for my Frantz transmission bypass filter.

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

I've emailed Deborah at Frantz to see what she says. I don't think they can be doing too good of a job if they are this loose, but I guess the fact that they are pressed down so hard tells me there are offereing good resistance to the oil pressure. Just seems odd to have them wrinkle down like that.

 

[Bio-T]

1977,

The pressed down is normal if you are using an outlet restrictor. That element looks normal.

Now for the ease of the tissue going in the cannister. If you have an older Frantz you may have one of the larger cannisters. When SKY (Skipper K. Yee) owned Frantz they made a cannister for Marine use. It was anadized gold. The marine and stainless cannister were a few thousands bigger than the old ones. The new ones from Frantz today are the old correct size. You appear to have one from that era that they were a touch larger. (about a 3 year run as I remember)

From personal past experience, 2000 miles on a TP is enough. Your mileage is way to long. IMO

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

All three of my units are from the past year, all have the big black screw clamping knob. I"ll check my other milages on the other 2 vehicles this weekend. If they are close to 2 thousand, i'll pull them and take a look. Thanks.

Mark

 

[Bio-T]

Yes, you have the new (correct) size cannisters.

Thanks

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

I got a reply from Deborah this morning. After looking at the picture, she said the same as above. Compression is normal with good solid oil pressure pushing on the roll. Guess I won't worry about it. Thanks.

Mark

 

[sifan]

59 Vetteman - 2000 miles on TP is enough? What kind of engines do you use? If I put 4000 miles on my TP, then it will look as black as shown in the photo. With 3000 miles the TP does not get that dirty but look a little dark brownish. My car has 4 cylinders.

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

I had some time a few days ago and pulled the TP from my other truck. It only had about 1200 miles but was on the RX rinse cycle. When I pulled the stick for a level check, the oil stunk like old rotten 10 year old oil. Guess the RX did a good job cleaning it out. The truck had sat for 11 years before I got it. Only has 32,000 miles now.

Anyways, the TP roll was in much better shape than my previous pic of my other truck. It came out very easy like the one on my '77 but was not squeezed down much at all. Time to check my wifes Caprice this weekend.

I heard back from Deborah at Frantz and she asked where I'm storing my rolls. I told her in my shop, which is very very dry and hot in the summer. She thinks that its possible that the dryness has removed what little moisture may have been in the rolls and caused them to shrink a tiny bit. Her suggestion is to store them back in the house where they won't go totally dry. Guess i'll try that next.

 

[Fitzhugh]

This is the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid by going to 3 micron hydraulic oil filters.

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

"This is the kind of thing I was hoping to avoid by going to 3 micron hydraulic oil filters."

Not sure I understand your post. 3 micron filters are not any better than most Checker spin-on filters. A TP filter roll is supposedly good to 1/10 micron. Or did you install a total of 3 filters? LOL (its late here!)

Mark

 

[Fitzhugh]

quote:

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Not sure I understand your post.

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All I meant was that I have this perhaps irrational suspicion that TP rolls are not all that repeatable. I think that if I set up a filtering experiment to measure the beta profile of a TP filter, that I'd find that they came in a wide variation of filtering efficiency, given that TP is not designed for or tested for oil filtration. It would vary for instance with how tightly the machine wound that roll as compared to the rolls from last week. And perhaps with humidity and age. I can't really tell how old that TP roll is.

quote:

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3 micron filters are not any better than most Checker spin-on filters.

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(...umm.... is Checker a brand? or just an auto filter?)

Maybe. From what I read of used oil analysis and manufacturer testing on standard full-flow filters, the standard filter is straining out about half the particles at 10 microns ( or, as I gather they say in the filter biz "Beta(10)=2 ). So a 3 micron filter with Beta(3)=200 like the Donaldson one is removes 99.5% of all particles at 3 micron diameter.

What the filter biz calls an "absolute filter" is a filter which has beta (x)= 75 where x is the particle size and there are 75 particles up stream for every one that gets through. This is a removal rate of 98.7% if I did the numbers right.

From the few filter profiles I've read, beta falls off rapidly after you get to something like beta(x)=10 (i.e. it removes 9/10 of the particles). I expect that the beta(3)=200 filter would have a ways to go to get down to beta (x)=75, and Donaldson does not say. So it's an "absolute filter" at below 3 microns, but we don't know where.

The question I have is - how much is good enough? I've read several supposedly experts saying that the clearances in a typical engine are more than 10 microns, so if you get all the particles under 5 microns out, you can't have two particles bridging the gap and causing wear. I don't know if that's true, and I'm still reading.

I hit on 3 microns because it's smaller than 5 microns and it's available.

As I say, all I know is what I read.

quote:

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A TP filter roll is supposedly good to 1/10 micron.

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Yeah - but I can't find any numbers that support that. Do you know of any good laboratory studies of the particle removal efficiency versus size across major TP brands?

All I know is what I read.

quote:

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Or did you install a total of 3 filters? LOL (its late here!)

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in series or parallel?

 

[Boyce]

I run the Frantz filter but have never run the Frantz TP element. I use a 1000 sheet 2-PLY roll. The problem I have is that the inside diameter is too big, so I wind some TP on the center tube and then twist the cap and TP element on to the center tube. I usually remove some of the outer part of the roll, too, since it is to big to install easily.

Frantz makes an issue about 2-ply tissues. I did not think much about it. I could always wipe the diesel engine oil stain off my hands with a paper towel after the Frantz filter was installed. Then, one time I couldn't wipe the stain off. I checked and the element was a 1-ply tissue. Went back to two ply and could wipe the stains off my hands again.

I don't buy into changing the TP element once a month and the oil and filter once a year, but I tried it. It does not keep up the oil chemistry. Got stuck piston rings after about 2 years. The Frantz was installed on a 1968 Nova, 250 six, in 1972 at 110,000 miles. I tried the once a month/year interval at about 280,000 and the engine failed due to poor maintenance at 325,000. All the oil rings were coked in place and about half the compresson rings were stuck in their grooves. Should have rebuilt the engine when it was about 25 years old and had about 250,000 mile. That is when the blow-by picked up and I had to use a V8 PCV to keep the oil cleaner.

I change the oil and filters every 3 months or 6000 miles on cars that are in general use.

I don't think I am going to outlive the engines I have now...

 

[Fitzhugh]

That's good data to have - thank you.

The inconsistency of TP filters is the only thing that I don't like about them. What's not to like - filtration, almost free?

I just like the idea that I can get a known quantity filter, made specifically for cleaning oils down to a known level, and get that repeatably.

I think that anyone who is going to extended oil drain intervals needs to do oil analysis on their engine to find out how long they can run between oil changes. Oil analysis costs $10 to $20 a pop, about the price of new oil and a (full flow) filter, so any better filtering which needs oil analysis had better extend the drain interval to more tha 2x the orginal interval.

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

If you buy the Frantz rolls, they are not toilet paper, per say. Its not perforated for tearing off sheets and its single ply. Its very tightly wound and is very consistant, atleast from what I've been able to tell.

Lots of people use the Scotts rolls too. I tried them once but did not like the fact that they were 1/4" inch bigger from tube end to tube end. Made putting on the retaining ring a real pain and jamming the whole thing onto the base was very tough.

Mark

 

[Fitzhugh]

quote:

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If you buy the Frantz rolls, they are not toilet paper, per say. Its not perforated for tearing off sheets and its single ply. Its very tightly wound and is very consistant, atleast from what I've been able to tell.

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I'm sure it is. I could probably be had on wound-paper filters if the makers would state - and back up by test - the filter characteristics that they will guarantee to provide. I can't find that, though.

quote:

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Lots of people use the Scotts rolls too. I tried them once but did not like the fact that they were 1/4" inch bigger from tube end to tube end. Made putting on the retaining ring a real pain and jamming the whole thing onto the base was very tough.

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That's the very thing I'm trying to avoid. Scotts presumably doesn't have oil filtering in mind, and if it makes more profit to wind fewer sheets more loosely, they may just do that and not tell us - along with changing the size of the inner tube and/or roll length. They're focussed on something else entirely.

Someone who is providing paper rolls for filtering, as Frantz and others do, would be more careful about consistency. If they'd document their consistency, they'd have a real winner. With me at least...

 

[mjo]

IMO, the paper fibers in different brands of TP are pretty much the same thickness. What matters the most is how dense the TP roll is and how well it seals inside the canister. If you want a tighter roll then pack it tighter. I've never seen a regular 1000 sheet 1 ply or 500 sheet 2 ply roll of TP that you could stuff entirely into a Frantz canister. Ralph has mentioned that you won't have to unwind as many sheets if you wrap the roll tightly with clear packing tape. When you want to know how thick a roll is, check it's weight. Assuming the packaging weighs almost nothing, divide the total weight by the number of rolls and you will have a good idea how dense the TP is. Right now, Scott TP is some of the thickest TP available at least from the supermarkets.

On a different topic, Whenever my used TP rolls come out loose is when they absorb water and also have the "buckling effect" at the end. Maybe that is what 1977c10phxdriver is experiencing.

 

[1977c10phxdriver]

Yesterday I pulled the Frantz tp on my wifes car. Roll looked good compared to the one from my truck. Had the same thing happen when I removed the metal inside ring, the filter just plopped out into the trash can. Hmmmmm.
When I put the new one in, it went in very easily so I wrapped some paper towel around the lower half and stood on it and shoved it in! That'll teach it! LOL

This oil, Chevron 10-30, now has almost 4,000 miles on it. How long should I wait to send in for a used oil analysis? I'm hoping it last longer than 4,000 miles, specially since I have had to add 2 fresh quarts since the last full oil change. Its a carb'd 305 thats driven only about 5 miles each way to work, never any highway miles.

Thanks
Mark