Toyota's reasoning for 0w20 viscosity engine oil

[CMMeadAM]

The MFR specifically specs a 0W20 SYNTHETIC oil. The best
spec'd 0W20 synthetic currently available is the Toyota
0W20. Why in the world should I waste my time and consider
ANYTHING else..........

You apparently like dino oil......we DON'T !

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: The Critic
76 makes a conventional 0w-20.

That's not a conventional but a synthetic-blend 0W-20. Of course, by mixing Group II+ with PAO, you can easily keep the NOACK volatility below 15%, as PAO has very low NOACK volatility. See my previous post.

The question is how much. At the price point they are selling it at, there cannot be much PAO. The VI does not appear to be very high either-- 170:

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/...20TDS%20Web.pdf

You wouldn't know unless you know the NOACK. I would guess that the 76 0W-20 NOACK is close to 15% (GF-5 limit) while the Toyota 0W-20 NOACK is more like close to 14% (not quite making the dexos1 limit [13%]). So, the Toyota 0W-20 would be a better oil as far synthetic vs. conventional is concerned, I would guess. Lower NOACK usually translates into cleaner engine and longer oil life, as well as less oil consumption.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

You wouldn't know unless you know the NOACK. I would guess that the 76 0W-20 NOACK is close to 15% (GF-5 limit) while the Toyota 0W-20 NOACK is more like close to 14% (not quite making the dexos1 limit [13%]). So, the Toyota 0W-20 would be a better oil as far synthetic vs. conventional is concerned, I would guess. Lower NOACK usually translates into cleaner engine and longer oil life, as well as less oil consumption.


That is quite likely. Toyota 0w20 probably has a high NOACK because I did notice some consumption towards the end of a 4500 mile interval with it. I was 1/6 low at the time of the oil change.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
You apparently like dino oil......we DON'T !

Well, in that case you should stop using dino oil and switch to Amsoil or Red Line. Dino oil means mineral oil and Toyota 0W-20 and Mobil 1 0W-20 has a lot of Group III mineral (dino) oil in the mix -- in fact they are mostly Group III dino. Oils like Amsoil or Red Line are truly synthetic (man-made) -- only Group IV (PAO) and Group V. API lets Group III to be legally labeled fully synthetic in US but Group III is a dino synthetic, not a man-made synthetic. In some other countries, it wouldn't be legal to call Group III dino "synthetic."

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

You wouldn't know unless you know the NOACK. I would guess that the 76 0W-20 NOACK is close to 15% (GF-5 limit) while the Toyota 0W-20 NOACK is more like close to 14% (not quite making the dexos1 limit [13%]). So, the Toyota 0W-20 would be a better oil as far synthetic vs. conventional is concerned, I would guess. Lower NOACK usually translates into cleaner engine and longer oil life, as well as less oil consumption.


That is quite likely. Toyota 0w20 probably has a high NOACK because I did notice some consumption towards the end of a 4500 mile interval with it. I was 1/6 low at the time of the oil change.

Was it 1/6 full or 1/6 empty?

1/6 empty is actually not bad at all. You are also probably not fully broken in yet and the oil consumption should decrease.

It starts increasing again after ten years or so when the valve-stem oil seals start getting worn.

 

[The Critic]

1/6 qt low.

The factory fill was in for 3,000 miles. Then I ran Mobil 1 0w-20 for 7500 miles and the oil level did not move at all. Next came the Toyota 0w-20 for 4500 miles.

The current fill is Mobil 1 0w-20 for 5000 miles. Then it will be Toyota 0w-20 again.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
1/6 qt low.

The factory fill was in for 3,000 miles. Then I ran Mobil 1 0w-20 for 7500 miles and the oil level did not move at all. Next came the Toyota 0w-20 for 4500 miles.

The current fill is Mobil 1 0w-20 for 5000 miles. Then it will be Toyota 0w-20 again.

I wouldn't worry about 1/6 qt oil consumption in 4500 miles at all. It could be because the temperature was higher during that time or you drove the car harder. I doubt Toyota 0W-20 NOACK volatility was the reason.

 

[CMMeadAM]

We do use Amsoil in specific applications. However, without
opening up the tiresome debate over what a "synthetic" oil is, and focusing on the application and PERFORMANCE, we'll happily
conimue with our use of Toyotas EXCELLENT 0W20 SYNTHETIC oil..
Thank you !

We're fully aware of all the Group 3, Grp 4,5 [censored], and while we prefer the "man made" synthetics ( as you say ) you can't deny
the excellent proven performance of the Group 3 oils much as you may like. And.....bottom line....PERFORMANCE is what it's ALL about !

We're also not interested in playing games with semantics !

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
you can't deny
the excellent proven performance of the Group 3 oils much as you may like. And.....bottom line....PERFORMANCE is what it's ALL about !

We're also not interested in playing games with semantics !

Exactly! That's why dino/conventional/synthetic is semantics and performance is the key. And, as far as performance is concerned, Group IV performs better than Group III and Group III performs better than Group II+. You can also have mixes of them that perform somewhere in between according to the IV > III+ > III > II+ > II > I hierarchy.

 

[CMMeadAM]

For the record....we much prefer Group IV, V over Gtoup III
oils. However, as stated earlier, PERFORMANCE is the bottom line, and Group III oils have closed the gap dramatically
between Group IIIs and REAL synthetics. No doubt, with
cost pressures increasing on Group IV's.V's. and continued
development, ( as shown by the Toyota 0W20 ) Group III
performance will continue to improve.

Currently, there is NO Grp IV, V oil that comes anywhere
near the the specs of the Toyota 0W20 oil .......until there is, we'll happily continue to use it.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Mobil 1 0W-20 has a lot of Group III mineral (dino) oil in the mix -- in fact they are mostly Group III dino.


We've been over this before, but given the low temp spec's on the above oil, I'm HIGHLY in doubt that it is mostly group III.

I'd love to know where you are getting your "facts" from.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Mobil 1 0W-20 has a lot of Group III mineral (dino) oil in the mix -- in fact they are mostly Group III dino.


We've been over this before, but given the low temp spec's on the above oil, I'm HIGHLY in doubt that it is mostly group III.

I'd love to know where you are getting your "facts" from.
OK, agreed, I should have omitted the second part of that sentence.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Mobil 1 0W-20 has a lot of Group III mineral (dino) oil in the mix -- in fact they are mostly Group III dino.


We've been over this before, but given the low temp spec's on the above oil, I'm HIGHLY in doubt that it is mostly group III.

I'd love to know where you are getting your "facts" from.
OK, agreed, I should have omitted the second part of that sentence.

OK, now that we've got that out of the way

BTW, I wouldn't have said anything if we were talking about their 5w30

With it's NOACK and mediocre cold spec's, I imagine it IS mostly G III. The AFE oils and the 0w40 are quite different however IMHO, as we've been over recently.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
For the record....we much prefer Group IV, V over Gtoup III
oils. However, as stated earlier, PERFORMANCE is the bottom line, and Group III oils have closed the gap dramatically
between Group IIIs and REAL synthetics. No doubt, with
cost pressures increasing on Group IV's.V's. and continued
development, ( as shown by the Toyota 0W20 ) Group III
performance will continue to improve.

Currently, there is NO Grp IV, V oil that comes anywhere
near the the specs of the Toyota 0W20 oil .......until there is, we'll happily continue to use it.

Yes, Toyota 0W-20 is a good oil and probably has a lot of Group IV in the mix as well.

The future of engine oil is changing quickly. Soon GTL will be here, which is far superior to Group III and yet cheaper than Group IV. Also, when GM extends dexos1 to 0W-xx, 0W-xx oils will need to use more Group IV or GTL in the mix to keep NOACK below 13%.

Expect to see more Group IV and GTL in the future, resulting in better 0W-xx oils, with lower NOACK, lower NOACK meaning even suitable for turbocharger-equipped cars.

 

[dailydriver]

Cost factors aside, could the PAO/GTL mixes actually be superior to (performance-wise) PAO/Ester basestocks???

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Cost factors aside, could the PAO/GTL mixes actually be superior to (performance-wise) PAO/Ester basestocks???

Yes, I think GTL basestocks are far superior to Group V basestocks, with much lower NOACK volatility, comparable to NOACK of PAO.

The main reason Group V basestocks are used is to stabilize PAO and increase PAO's solvency.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Cost factors aside, could the PAO/GTL mixes actually be superior to (performance-wise) PAO/Ester basestocks???

Yes, I think GTL basestocks are far superior to Group V basestocks


The lead tribologist at Torco gave me the same affirmation when I spoke with him ~ a year ago.
I've never heard anyone as excited as he was about GTLs coming on line!!

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: weebl
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There were several concentric C's molded at the bottom of the bottle.


You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCC_mark It simply indicates the product is approved for sale in China, similar to the CE mark on products approved for sale in Europe. These say nothing about who makes it or where it was made.

Oh, no, they were "concentric" Cs, probably the mark of the plastic-bottle manufacturer.

I just checked my bottle of SM Mobil 1 0W-20 and Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 -- both are "G" bottles. Toyota 5W-20 SN was also a "G" bottle.

Bottle experts? Toyota Genuine Motor Oil experts? Discuss. Also explain the evidence for Exxon - Mobil make.

Well, it's a small world.

Today, when I was driving in Carson, California, I saw this sign on a plant that I drove by!

The name of the company is Consolidated Container Company. And, yes, they do make bottles for Mobil 1 and Mobil Delvac! Here are the examples of the bottles they make on their Web page:

Consolidated Container Company

 

[Norm Olt]

[/quote]
Yes, Toyota 0W-20 is a good oil and probably has a lot of Group IV in the mix as well.

The future of engine oil is changing quickly. Soon GTL will be here, which is far superior to Group III and yet cheaper than Group IV. Also, when GM extends dexos1 to 0W-xx, 0W-xx oils will need to use more Group IV or GTL in the mix to keep NOACK below 13%.

Expect to see more Group IV and GTL in the future, resulting in better 0W-xx oils, with lower NOACK, lower NOACK meaning even suitable for turbocharger-equipped cars. [/quote]

Latest C&D comparo for sedans (11/10/11) was Accord EX-L V6, Turbo Sonata and the "new" Passat SEL. Average price was $32+K.

Expect new cars to require new oils and the "$100 oil change" that was what you might expect for an "exotic" car will be the new "norm"...

Like a $17,020 Nissan Versa(with leather, no less), new Audi A6 (MSRP $50,775, as tested $67,430: options @ almost the price of the "loaded" Versa) with a $5,900 B&O sound system, a SCION iQ (for those who don't really have an IQ) for just $15,995...

et al, ad nauseum

(NO) Cheers!

p.s. There are those who buy $10.99/quart motorcycle-specific oils when 15W-40 HDEO will do just fine... And they change it every 2K miles.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

OK I haven't posted in some time but I have been running two 2010 toyotas(new roller 1grfe in both) on the 0w20 at factory intervals from the start.
I ran my wifes 4 runner for 10k on the factory fill and it has been refiled once with mobil 1 0w20. My FJ cruiser went 7500 miles and a year was up so I went to the dealer and they refilled with Mobil 1 0w20.

I have no issues with the brands(toyota label-vs-mobil 1) the factory is paying for the first couple of changes(or I did up front

)

I used to read all the white papers and perrform UOA's and really invest to much time in lubrication when it is not my profesion.

I pay for a car that gives me 10k oci's. I go 10k and stop worrying. Could there be a problem? yes. Could I get cancer? yes. I think I will worry less and live more. Thank's guys for keeping up the debate, makes for good reads.