Toyota's reasoning for 0w20 viscosity engine oil

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: weebl
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
There were several concentric C's molded at the bottom of the bottle.


You mean this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCC_mark It simply indicates the product is approved for sale in China, similar to the CE mark on products approved for sale in Europe. These say nothing about who makes it or where it was made.

Oh, no, they were "concentric" Cs, probably the mark of the plastic-bottle manufacturer.

I just checked my bottle of SM Mobil 1 0W-20 and Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15W-40 -- both are "G" bottles. Toyota 5W-20 SN was also a "G" bottle.

Bottle experts? Toyota Genuine Motor Oil experts? Discuss. Also explain the evidence for Exxon - Mobil make.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Also explain the evidence for Exxon - Mobil make.


Some folks on here contacted Toyota of America and Toyota of Canada. A shop guy also did a barcode scan of part# 00279-0WQTE and it was listed as "product of Mobil USA". Here is one of the original threads. It caused quite a bit of confusion, because Nippon was originally making it.

That price is insane. Locally, one dealer wanted $10.00 a qt, another sold it to me for a little over $5.00, so I guess you just have to look around.

 

[ltslimjim]

...regards the first couple pages about Japanese lubricants vs. USA/Canada: What fuel type is used over there, any ethanol etc?

I think the question 'could' be, is it harder to have extended OCIs in the US due to things like CAFE or simply the fuels used with the octane we have + ethanol, compared to other places in the world?

That said, it could be argued the US is having to develop the best possible oils for these reasons(pushing OCI + CAFE = clash of interests TO AN extent).

PS: This is probably the most enjoyable thread, aside from the Cu debate in the UOA section currently going on, that I've read in a while(actual substance) and it was all started on a perhaps 'wrong' conclusion, but the fact is the OP had the desire to know. There are no stupid questions!

 

[ltslimjim]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
It's surprising that Toyota 0W-20 doesn't have Mg. Chances are that TBN will be OK for 10,000 miles without Mg, but then whenever it gets below 3.0, you should start to worry, as it may start increasing wear. Blackstone guys will say TBN is OK if it's over 1.0, but I think 3.0 is about the lowest you should go for better wear protection.


Well, okay, explain Amsoil's AZO with 'loads' of Cal -minus the mag? Is it's TBN retention based on Mg? Obviously not, well is the amount of Cal in of itself helpful for 'retention'? I'd say probably not, amount sure but retention?

Then comes the Boron aspect, does that impact TBN retention as a 'substitute' for mag?

Originally Posted By: JOD

There are different ways to skin a cat. You seem to be dismissing the base oils being used and just focusing on the additive packs. Amsoil has consistently been a great performer for extended drains, and they use very little Mg in their formulations. Fuchs 507 oil is probably one of the best extended drain oils available, with almost no Mg. Maybe it's just cheaper to make an extended drain oil with a bunch of Mg?

 

[ltslimjim]

I'd say you won't see a 'meaningful' (lets say a minimum of 1% for sake of argument), increase in Fuel Efficiency/Economy between Toyota 0w-20 and Mobil 1 AFE 0w-20; unless in sub 32*F for the entire OCI.

Which, ironically, helps XOM with either product you buy. If I had, say, a Honda Fit and I lived in Canada, I'd buy Toyota 0w-20 and drive it 10,000 miles with a UOA(to verify TBN, since that is the baseline argument in this thread)...every time. Probably M1 AFE 0w-20 in the summer as my 'thick' oil.

...which leads to this, PYB > Toyota in above 32*F conditions, for me in the south. Not that you'd go wrong with either, just a better value, IMO. Where is the money pay off if you pay a lot more for Toyota 0w-20 when PYB can be had at greater than 50% off by comparison AT LEAST.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Well of course the Toyota 0W-20 is "better" than PYB 5W-20.
Up here the Toyota oil is $5/L which is only about 50 cents more than PYB unless it's on sale.
The SM Toyota oil has almost 3X the moly of PYB.

But unless you have an very accurate butt dino I'd suggest installing an OP gauge. If you do, you won't believe how much lower the OP is on start-up; when I first ran it the 25 psi drop in cold OP on idle was startling.


And in conclusion a video to lighten the mood:

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: JOD
That price is insane. Locally, one dealer wanted $10.00 a qt, another sold it to me for a little over $5.00, so I guess you just have to look around.

The list price (Toyota part no. 00279-0WQTE-01) is $7.25 and I can get it under $6 if I order it online from a nearby dealer, which is 25-mile-away.

The nearest local dealer here (only a mile away) charges twice the online price for all genuine Toyota parts. That's more than a 100% markup! I can sometimes negotiate it down by showing them the printout of the online prices and hustling them.

Since Toyota 0W-20 is a synthetic made by Exxon - Mobil, does this mean that it suffers from the high-iron-in-UOA syndrome?

 

[CMMeadAM]

Check out the latest UOA posted for a 2010 Prius that went
10K miles on Toyota 0W20. It might help to answer your question !

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Check out the latest UOA posted for a 2010 Prius that went
10K miles on Toyota 0W20. It might help to answer your question !

I would if I could find it. Do you have the link?

 

[CMMeadAM]

No...but it was posted earlier today in the UOA section.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
No...but it was posted earlier today in the UOA section.

Thanks, here is the link. (You can obtain the link by clicking on the post icon to the left of the post title.)

The numbers are high on aluminum and tin and it sheared quite a bit. It's hard to say if the high aluminum and tin numbers are because it's a relatively new engine but it's quite possible. It's also hard to say if you could do better with a plain dino.

 

[Gokhan]

But then the high tin number could also be a measurement error, as tin is apparently difficult to measure. UOA seems mostly OK otherwise; although the viscosity is on the low side for an xW-20, especially given the fact that the starting (new-oil) viscosity is at least around 8.5 cSt for this oil. It looks like they are using a lot of viscosity-index-improver polymers (more so than Mobil 1 0W-20 for example) to increase the viscosity index of the Toyota 0W-20 and these polymers are shearing when the oil gets used.

The original factory fill (the UOA in the right column) would be the Nippon Oil version, as all Priuses are made in Japan. It's not clear if the new UOA is Exxon - Mobil Toyota 0W-20 or the Nippon Oil Toyota 0W-20.

 

[CMMeadAM]

Our UOA's for the Toyota 0W20 in a 2011 Prius with 8k Miles show just 3-4ppm aluminum and 0 tin. 100C viscosity at 7.9.
Caterham has experienced about a 10% initial shear within
the first few hundred miles or so, but then stated the oil
stabilizes. This was for the 0W20 SM oil. We are using the
SM also.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Our UOA's for the Toyota 0W20 in a 2011 Prius with 8k Miles show just 3-4ppm aluminum and 0 tin. 100C viscosity at 7.9.
Caterham has experienced about a 10% initial shear within
the first few hundred miles or so, but then stated the oil
stabilizes. This was for the 0W20 SM oil. We are using the
SM also.

Perhaps yours is the Exxon - Mobil version and what is posted today (link above) is the Nippon Oil version? This would mean that the Exxon - Mobil version is better -- not surprising because Exxon - Mobil would be using the ultimate moly (trinuclear kind) instead of Japanese moly.

Less shear is also not surprising with Exxon - Mobil, as they would be using more PAO instead of more viscosity-index-improver polymers. Do you have your UOA posted?

 

[CMMeadAM]

You surely aweare you're not going to get a 0W20 in a dino oil.
The specs specifically call for a synthetic 0W20 and there
is no 0W20 presently available thats better than the Toyota
0W20 for use in the Prius. We're not tyhe least bit interested
in dino oils in ANY of our cars, daily driver or otherwise.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
You surely aweare you're not going to get a 0W20 in a dino oil.
The specs specifically call for a synthetic 0W20 and there
is no 0W20 presently available thats better than the Toyota
0W20 for use in the Prius. We're not tyhe least bit interested
in dino oils in ANY of our cars, daily driver or otherwise.

76 makes a conventional 0w-20.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
You surely aweare you're not going to get a 0W20 in a dino oil.

Yes, that's correct. That's because Group II+ doesn't satisfy the minimum GF-4/GF-5 NOACK volatitilty (15%) for 0W-xx oil. You need Group III, IV, or GTL. 5W-xx dino would be OK though.

 

[CMMeadAM]

Thanks for the info...but as I said, we're not interested
in "dino" oils...especially 76 Petunia Juice !

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
76 makes a conventional 0w-20.

That's not a conventional but a synthetic-blend 0W-20. Of course, by mixing Group II+ with PAO, you can easily keep the NOACK volatility below 15%, as PAO has very low NOACK volatility. See my previous post.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: The Critic
76 makes a conventional 0w-20.

That's not a conventional but a synthetic-blend 0W-20. Of course, by mixing Group II+ with PAO, you can easily keep the NOACK volatility below 15%, as PAO has very low NOACK volatility. See my previous post.

The question is how much. At the price point they are selling it at, there cannot be much PAO. The VI does not appear to be very high either-- 170:

http://www.conocophillipslubricants.com/...20TDS%20Web.pdf

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: CMMeadAM
Thanks for the info...but as I said, we're not interested
in "dino" oils...especially 76 Petunia Juice !

Ah, actually a Group II+/IV blend semisynthetic could quite easily have a lower NOACK than a Group III/IV blend full synthetic or a Group III full synthetic. And lower NOACK simply means a better oil as far as synthetic vs. dino discussion goes!

It all depends on how much Group IV you have in the mix. The oils that are legally marketed in US can be sold as full synthetic, even if they are 100% Group III, which is theoretically 100% dino (mineral oil). (This is not to say that Group III isn't better than Group II+ -- it is, as it has lower NOACK volatility.) Therefore, in reality, you can only tell how synthetic an oil is by knowing its NOACK volatility.

76 0W-20 semisynthetic would be a better synthetic than the Toyota 0W-20 full synthetic if it has a lower NOACK.