Toyota's new electric oil pump.

[ATex7239]

Good info, but it says that oil pump is chain driven. So looks like the variable flow and pressure is controlled by an electrically control solenoid valve. Just another type of mechanically driven, but ECU controlled variable volume oil pump like used on may newer vehicles.

Underneath the graph showing the pressure vs engine RPM is says:
"Trochoidal pump is driven via an additional short chain. The ECM controls the pump operation by oil pressure control valve, depending on the engine temperature, speed and other parameters. Under the action of pressure in the control chamber, a regulator moves and changes the mutual position of the internal and external rotors, thereby achieving a smooth change of the oil charge volume."

I definitely wouldn’t call controlling fluids with solenoids via programmable logic ground breaking tech. Kinda like a dishwasher huh?

 

[ZeeOSix]

The High Temperature / High Shear (HTHS) engine wear graph rises sharply when HTHS goes below 2.6. The 0W-16 has HTHS of 2.3. Combine that with an oil pump which prioritizes low oil pressure - it has me wondering if engine longevity was Toyota's #1 priority in making these design decisions or was it avoiding CAFE fines. We're all hoping that the magic of Toyota engineering will deliver using these design decisions. I hope it succeeds. If it doesn't succeed, the used car market in 5 to 10 years is going to be like a mine field.

Toyota may be purposely taking a hit on their known super longevity and balancing fuel economy with longevity under the ever increasing pressure of CAFE. Only time will tell as they say. If BITOG is still around in 20 years, maybe we will know.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I definitely wouldn’t call controlling fluids with solenoids via programmable logic ground breaking tech. Kinda like a dishwasher huh?

Yeah, that was my point. These type of computer controlled mechanical oil pumps have been used for a long time now. A purely electric driven oil pump, not so much.

Kind of glad all of my vehicles have the old fashioned PD oil pump. Not much to go wrong with those.

 

[PimTac]

And has been said many times, these cars that specify 0W-16 are actually designed for that low of an oil viscosity. There's a reason that 0W-16 has it's own ILSAC GF-6 designation and unique API symbol on the bottle. They do not want people putting 0W-16 in anything not specifying 0W-16.

That could go the other direction too. You wouldn’t want to run 0w-40 in a engine specifying 0w-16.

 

[nthach]

Just more inovation that is ultimately driven by CAFE to meet the targets and not pay CAFE fine money. The money flow bottom line matters, as they say.

For years, BMW and Mercedes gladly paid the CAFE penalties. Toyota sold enough Corollas, Tercels/Echos and Prii to offset the Lexus/4Runner/Sienna/Tacoma lineup until the Sequoia and Tundra got bigger, which was when they started pushing 0W-20.

 

[ZeeOSix]

That could go the other direction too. You wouldn’t want to run 0w-40 in a engine specifying 0w-16.

I'd bet it wouldn't hurt it one bit to run 0W-40. Been down that road many times in these discussions.

But running 0W-16 in an engine that calls for 0W-40 (like a high HP Corvette) would most likely hurt the motor if it was driven like it was meant to driven.

 

[ATex7239]

And has been said many times, these cars that specify 0W-16 are actually designed for that low of an oil viscosity. There's a reason that 0W-16 has it's own ILSAC GF-6 designation and unique API symbol on the bottle. They do not want people putting 0W-16 in anything not specifying 0W-16.

Preaching to the choir brother. If I were a naysayer I wouldn’t own a vehicle spec’d for 16. And I have no plans to run 16 in the Ecoboost.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Preaching to the choir brother. If I were a naysayer I wouldn’t own a vehicle spec’d for 16. And I have no plans to run 16 in the Ecoboost.

You got the Sienna hybrid? The OM says you can use a heavier viscosity if "the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions." Yes, even Toyota knows about HTHS for engine protection, even in ones designed for 0W-16.

And says 0W-20 is OK for a whole OCI - but they say to go back to 0W-16 so they can please the all mighty CAFE.

 

[nthach]

You got the Sienna hybrid? The OM says you can use a heavier viscosity if "the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions." Yes, even Toyota knows about HTHS for engine protection, even in ones designed for 0W-16.

And says 0W-20 is OK for a whole OCI - but they say to go back to 0W-16 so they can please the all mighty CAFE.

On the RX my dad uses for Uber, as soon as 60K passes, I’m using 5W-30.

 

[ATex7239]

You got the Sienna hybrid? The OM says you can use a heavier viscosity if "the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions." Yes, even Toyota knows about HTHS for engine protection, even in ones designed for 0W-16.

And says 0W-20 is OK for a whole OCI - but they say to go back to 0W-16 so they can please the all mighty CAFE.

Yep. Only using 16 so far since I’m not taking it on 100mph track runs or towing a boat. I plan to keep using 16 unless I do something “extreme” or “heavy.” Since Toyota doesn’t exactly say what that means I guess I’ll just have to define it for myself. But to be fair to Toyota all the folks who say how much “wear” is happening by using 16 aren’t exactly clearly defining how much and what the real world engine life losses are either… 35K miles and everything is still fine. Time will tell how well the engine hold up. Maybe the engine won’t make 500K on 16. But I wasn’t planning for it to when I bought it either.

Also the be clear on post # 22 you seem to suggest it’s all good. ILSAC rating of GF-6B vs GF-6A, engine design, and such. Now with the above comment not so much. So is it cool or a just boondoggle?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Also the be clear on post # 22 you seem to suggest it’s all good. ILSAC rating of GF-6B vs GF-6A, engine design, and such. Now with the above comment not so much. So is it cool or a just boondoggle?

What I'm saying, and always have said in these type of discussions, is: 1) Running the OM's specified viscosity for normal street driving will be fine. Even if there's some slight/minimal wear increase, it will probably not be enough to matter much at 200-250K miles 2) Going up a grade in viscosity will always give some added wear protection due to increased HTHS and MOFT (basic tribology), regardless if driven hard or not, but especially if driven hard (heavy towing, high speeds, extended high RPM, track use, etc). Tthat's basically what Toyota (and others) are getting at in their OM statement about using a higher viscosity in certain harder driving conditions.

There is nothing wrong with added wear protection headroom to cover all the conditions that might come up while driving around - that's my MO anyway. It's funny that many people (not you it seems) think there is something bad or detrimental about going up a viscosity grade, maybe even two, if driving conditions are really extreme. The OMs in the US are always going to specify the lowest viscosity possible that tries to balance engine protection and "acceptable longevity" with CAFE goals. We often see many threads here showing OMs for the same engines used in other countries calling out a whole spectrum of oil viscosities. We have also seen some manufacurers like Ford bump viscosity back up, and that's because basic tribology over-rode CAFE to some degree.

 

[kschachn]

Good info, but it says that oil pump is chain driven. So looks like the variable flow and pressure is controlled by an electrically control solenoid valve. Just another type of mechanically driven, but ECU controlled variable volume oil pump like used on may newer vehicles.

Underneath the graph showing the pressure vs engine RPM is says:
"Trochoidal pump is driven via an additional short chain. The ECM controls the pump operation by oil pressure control valve, depending on the engine temperature, speed and other parameters. Under the action of pressure in the control chamber, a regulator moves and changes the mutual position of the internal and external rotors, thereby achieving a smooth change of the oil charge volume."

Thanks for that.

 

[doublebase]

An electric motor for an oil pump. What could go wrong?

Well, I’m not entirely sure it is an electric oil pump (or just electric controlled relief valve), however I remember the same things being said about fuel pumps, water pumps, power steering, variable valve timing actuators. And they’re all doing fine nowadays.

I put nearly 200,000 miles on a car with an electric motor activating the intake side of the variable valve timing. I swore that would give me a problem, it never did. And that same car had electric steering, rather than a belt powered pump. I figured that would give me problems...that thing NEVER gave me one single issue. Perfect all the way up to 189,000 miles when I traded it in. And now I’m in another vehicle with electric power assist steering (no pump) and I’m at 96,000 miles, no issue.

I’m sold on electric pumps now.

 

[nicholas]

I was reviewing the new/almost new Toyota car lineup (Camry's, Siennas, etc).
They are spec-ed for 0W-16 and come with an electric oil pump.
I watched a youtube video by the Car Care Nut (He is a Toyota Master Technician mechanic who works at a Toyota dealer in Chicago).

He described the Toyota electric oil pump as being programmed to keep the OW-16 oil pressure as low as possible for fuel efficiency.
The example he used was that it would keep the oil pressure at only 10 PSI until the car got up to 3,000 RPMs, and then it would go to 40 PSI
and stay at 40 PSI while the car is > 3,000 RPMs.

The concern I have is that this approach is basically starving the engine of oil lubrication for RPM's < 3,000.
For those of us who like to keep their cars for 10 to 15 years and take them to 200k miles, concern would be the long term impact
of 10 PSI oil pressure for most of the driving. Wear on the piston rings, camshaft, timing chain, etc could accumulate
over the years and turn these cars into severe oil burners.

Even if you decided to use 0W-20 for it's higher HTHS = 2.6 to have less engine wear instead of 0W-16 (HTHS = 2.3),
you would still be faced with that electric oil pump keeping oil pressure very low.

I think about an overloaded Toyota Sienna with 8 heavy passengers + luggage going on a long trip going up mountain roads
in 100 degree weather with the AC with this oil pump limiting PSI to 10 and with 0W-16 with HTHS = 2.3 and asking myself
if I really want to own a car like this. Low oil pressure is not good for engine longevity.

I know everyone will reply saying trust the Toyota engineers, they know more than we do, and you might be right.
But it is your money, you can choose to buy a car without these design changes and not have to worry about it.

This sounds like a honda VCM disaster in the making.....all for 1mpgish........

 

[ATex7239]

What I'm saying, and always have said in these type of discussions, is: 1) Running the OM's specified viscosity for normal street driving will be fine. Even if there's some slight/minimal wear increase, it will probably not be enough to matter much at 200-250K miles 2) Going up a grade in viscosity will always give some added wear protection due to increased HTHS and MOFT (basic tribology), regardless if driven hard or not, but especially if driven hard (heavy towing, high speeds, extended high RPM, track use, etc). Tthat's basically what Toyota (and others) are getting at in their OM statement about using a higher viscosity in certain harder driving conditions.

There is nothing wrong with added wear protection headroom to cover all the conditions that might come up while driving around - that's my MO anyway. It's funny that many people (not you it seems) think there is something bad or detrimental about going up a viscosity grade, maybe even two, if driving conditions are really extreme. The OMs in the US are always going to specify the lowest viscosity possible that tries to balance engine protection and "acceptable longevity" with CAFE goals. We often see many threads here showing OMs for the same engines used in other countries calling out a whole spectrum of oil viscosities. We have also seen some manufacurers like Ford bump viscosity back up, and that's because basic tribology over-rode CAFE to some degree.

All fair points. I don’t disagree with the science. I believe it. I have used a higher viscosity in several vehicles when racing, towing and off roading because it was absolutely required.

The hard part to define with this particular topic is at what point is it actually impactful with “normal” or “extended” use. And this gray area is the hard part. And manufacturers won’t clearly define that break-over point for us. So we are all left to decide for ourselves.

Ex: 800lbs hauling on a flat surface at 55mph in mild 60 degree weather. Manufacturer: w16 is good.

Ex: 850lbs hauling on a slightly hilly surface at 65mpg in warm 70 degree weather. Manufacturer: Whoa, Nelly! Warning, warning! Danger! Use w20! Use w20, right now!

Ex2: desire no more 250,000 miles of service with normal use cause you’re going to trade it in by then anyways. Manufacturer: w16 is good.

Ex2: desire 300,000 miles of service with moderate use cause you're gonna drive the wheels off it. Manufacturer: Hey now! What in the name of sweet baby Jesus are doing here, you maniac!?!? Put some w20 in there lest you suffer the wrath!

These types of very direct example with very direct recommendations would be helpful. But they doesn’t exist. So we are all just doing what we are comfortable with.

 

[930.engineering]

Well, I’m not entirely sure it is an electric oil pump (or just electric controlled relief valve).....

Good point. It seems we're debating electric oil pumps still without knowing
the car in question is even using an electric oil pump.
Electronically controlled oil pumps are quite common for more than a decade.
.

 

[ATex7239]

Good point. It seems we're debating electric oil pumps still without knowing
the car in question is even using an electric oil pump.
Electronically controlled oil pumps are quite common for more than a decade.
.

Looks like a chain drive to me. You can see the chain depicted going at an upward right angle toward the crank on the “#6- oil pump” in the engine diagram. And info in the link says its chain driven. May not be definitive info. But everything I have seen to-date has been internet speculation only. So I’m going with this.

Toyota engines - A25·M20 - Dynamic Force series (R4)

Review of Toyota Dynamic Force engines design and components - inline-4 (M20A, A25A)

toyota-club.net

 

[spasm3]

That could go the other direction too. You wouldn’t want to run 0w-40 in a engine specifying 0w-16.

I bet you could!

 

[KrisZ]

So much drama about nothing, it's a chain driven oil pump folks!
And as per the graph below, its operation is not just dependent on RPM, but also engine load. Looks like above 50% load and 1500RPM, the pump will output almost at maximum.

 

[kschachn]

That could go the other direction too. You wouldn’t want to run 0w-40 in a engine specifying 0w-16.

Other than the fuel economy hit there would be no technical reason not to do so.