Toyota WS Transmission fluid

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: doublebase
Originally Posted By: GSCJR
Nope. I drained mine last month with 105k Kms on the FF; It too was black. Only about 2L drained out and I topped it off with MaxLife. Will do another d&f next month to monitor fluid.


I wonder what they use for a dye in that fluid, I found a youtube video where a guy did his tranny service outside and the sun discolored some WS fluid he had sitting in direct sunlight. I don't think that would happen to any other transmission fluid out there.


True story, deep purple in sun. I saw the same in 06 rav4 and 07 yaris. However newer WS ATF don't do that anymore. my 10 prius had that newer batch already.

Here are some pictures I took (RAV4 had tranny replaced in 2011 and had new fluid in already):

 

[doublebase]

Interesting, I didn't realize that they had changed the dye. I'll be doing another drain in a few months and I'm curious to see how it looks because I have the newer fluid in it now.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: doublebase
Well I changed mine at 70,000 miles and the stuff came out almost black (new fluid is red). It's supposed to be a high viscosity fluid...I think it must be synthetic.

I changed ATF in yaris with 70,000 miles recently. WS was almost like new, a bit darker red. I dunno why people get it black. I think this is a huge overexaggeration.

I haven't seen doublebase's old ATF, but here's a picture of my "huge overexaggeration", the most recent WS drain-n-fill from my Corolla at 115K. The forward oil pan and the 2L measuring pitcher have the old WS ATF in it. It's still "red"... if you put it on a paper towel and look at the other side. For what it's worth, it is not as black as the first drain-n-fill, and I have replaced the filter.

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

BTW, it's not "high viscosity".

From what I understand, Toyota WS is on the thinner side of the ATF viscosity scale.

 

[doublebase]

Hangfire, with my situation, when I drained it I was standing there with another tech and we both looked at each other like...uh oh. But it turned out to be fine. I talked to a lexus parts manager and he said the fluid quickly turns into almost a gear oil (in terms of appearance). Now it sounds like they have changed the dye in it.

 

[HangFire]

Originally Posted By: doublebase
Hangfire, with my situation, when I drained it I was standing there with another tech and we both looked at each other like...uh oh. But it turned out to be fine. I talked to a lexus parts manager and he said the fluid quickly turns into almost a gear oil (in terms of appearance). Now it sounds like they have changed the dye in it.


Thanks doublebase, that's comforting.

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: HangFire

From what I understand, Toyota WS is on the thinner side of the ATF viscosity scale.


Correct. Too match it, Mag1 offers a "Low Vis" option that matches the WS specs very closely - most others are more like T-IV. But in truth, when Toyota switched the applications (c. 2003), they did not suddenly change the transmissions. They just started putting WS in the same slushboxes that they previously used T-IV.

If you want to match WS as close as possible, the Mag1 Low-Vis is a very affordable full-synthetic and very easy to get via amazon.

 

[GSCJR]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: doublebase
Well I changed mine at 70,000 miles and the stuff came out almost black (new fluid is red). It's supposed to be a high viscosity fluid...I think it must be synthetic.


I changed ATF in yaris with 70,000 miles recently. WS was almost like new, a bit darker red. I dunno why people get it black. I think this is a huge overexaggeration.

BTW, it's not "high viscosity".


I am unable to comment on the colour of your ATF; I was not present.

However, mine looked like used engine oil, almost black.

 

[meep]

Dealer here will flush and fill with BG universal synthetic. It is a thicker fluid than WS and compares to the other universal synthetics for dexron/mercon. Amsoil has a low viscosity synthetic ATF that they sell for WS and Dex VI applications, which is what I used. Shifting improved on the tundra in terms of smoothness and finesse, quicker with less thumping, when I did two D/F with the amsoil.

I'll add the I added a spin-on filter this weekend, and even after the dealer flush at 100k, and two D/Fs during the past 30k miles to 130k, I still saw bright sparkles in the cherry red fluid that spilled from the lines this weekend. I believe the trans has an internal screen but no filter media.

 

[Boss302fan]

I have a 2006 Lexus LS 430 with 83K miles and I have done 3 ATF drain and fills with WS fluid. The fluid has always looked pretty decent. after the last drain and fill, the atf looked like new. With my application, I stayed with WS because it is specd for my Lexus and is an excellent full syn fluid. I did not want to take the chance using any other type ATF. I have used Maxlife in many other applications and it is also very good. BUT, in my Lexus, only WS will be used...

 

[147_Grain]

Where did you hear that Toyota's WS ATF is an "excellent full syn fluid"? The basestock is likely a blend and Toyota doesn't even call it a full synthetic.

FYI: MaxLife uses a superior basestock and is labeled as "full synthetic."

If Toyota's WS spec'd ATF was a full synthetic, they surely would put it on the label to justify the higher cost.

 

[Boss302fan]

Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
Where did you hear that Toyota's WS ATF is an "excellent full syn fluid"? The basestock is likely a blend and Toyota doesn't even call it a full synthetic.

FYI: MaxLife uses a superior basestock and is labeled as "full synthetic."

If Toyota's WS spec'd ATF was a full synthetic, they surely would put it on the label to justify the higher cost.


WS is a synthetic... I use Maxlife ATF in almost all my other cars and it has performed like it should. I have Maxlife in my Jaguar and the tranny is smooth as silk. LOL.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: GSCJR

I am unable to comment on the colour of your ATF; I was not present.

However, mine looked like used engine oil, almost black.


You missed my pictures. Where are yours to compare?

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: HangFire

I haven't seen doublebase's old ATF, but here's a picture of my "huge overexaggeration", the most recent WS drain-n-fill from my Corolla at 115K. The forward oil pan and the 2L measuring pitcher have the old WS ATF in it.


It's hard to judge color in big buckets (especially if black). Blot it on a paper tower, show a picture, and we'll talk. I suspect it's not "black" but red with lots of clutch wear material suspended in it. If so, it's a tranny wear problem and not fluid problem.

 

[GSCJR]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: GSCJR

I am unable to comment on the colour of your ATF; I was not present.

However, mine looked like used engine oil, almost black.


You missed my pictures. Where are yours to compare?


Fluid is long gone. No pictures however, someone close by watching me performing the service also asked if the fluid coming out of the trans was engine oil.

The fluid smelled bad too.

Curious how it will look when I change out a couple more litres in a month or so.

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
BUT, in my Lexus, only WS will be used...


In our Lexus, I care too much to use WS in it...

WS is a semi-synthetic. And it's light so as to squeeze out extra MPG. Because of that, most find it shears sooner than other ATFs and needs more frequent maintenance - as I guess you've discovered with your drain/fill cycle vs. the factory recommendations. If you stick with WS, do stick with that maintenance and not what Lexus says.

We know it's a semi-synthetic because the various manufacturers state so in the MSDS and other filings in their various countries. Makers of it have been found in Japan (Aisin), Germany (Ravenol), Canada (Esso), and the US (Exxon). Dino/PAO combination.

The engineers of your transmission, the Aisin A761E wrote a paper on if for the SAE (2004-01-650) and explained that the use of WS was dictated by trying to meet fuel economy standards, not for optimal wear protection or driving characteristics. Indeed, the A761E, like most "new" transmissions, wasn't a blank slate but just an update of the A750E five-speed gear box. That was around well before WS.

In my vehicles and others - particularly a friend's late model 4Runner - WS generally fails well before a quality synthetic would or a quality semi-synthetic of conventional viscosity. I think you are smart to not trust the Lexus recommendation on service interval and be doing it much more frequently than recommended (3 drain/fills at 83k vs. their recommendation). I'm using MaxLife now in our Lexus and it is running much more smoothly than it did with the last fill of WS.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Or

The engineers of your transmission, the Aisin A761E wrote a paper on if for the SAE (2004-01-650) and explained that the use of WS was dictated by trying to meet fuel economy standards, not for optimal wear protection or driving characteristics.


Yes, WS is about fuel economy, but you apparantly missed the toyota paper comparing WS vs T-IV and showing the same wear protection despite lower viscosity. Had to do with different choice of base fluid and VII.

 

[Oro_O]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


Yes, WS is about fuel economy, but you apparantly missed the toyota paper comparing WS vs T-IV and showing the same wear protection despite lower viscosity. Had to do with different choice of base fluid and VII.


Ah, the old saw about assumptions comes to mind...

No, I did not miss that. But I didn't say it was inferior. What I said was it was not designed for optimum wear protection - that could have been achieved by choosing different base stocks, add packs, and taking advantage of advances in petroleum engineering since T-IV was developed. Toyota went a different direction - that is what I said. "Just as good as the last generation" is not really a market-winner in my book.

Somebody looking to just push a product past the warranty period while manipulating the TCO figures for the accountants and CAFE for the politicians, instead of working to ensure wear protection would engineer that. Different goals, but not really aligned with the needs of the long-term owner or maximum service life.

 

[Boss302fan]

Originally Posted By: Or
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek


Yes, WS is about fuel economy, but you apparantly missed the toyota paper comparing WS vs T-IV and showing the same wear protection despite lower viscosity. Had to do with different choice of base fluid and VII.


Ah, the old saw about assumptions comes to mind...

No, I did not miss that. But I didn't say it was inferior. What I said was it was not designed for optimum wear protection - that could have been achieved by choosing different base stocks, add packs, and taking advantage of advances in petroleum engineering since T-IV was developed. Toyota went a different direction - that is what I said. "Just as good as the last generation" is not really a market-winner in my book.

Somebody looking to just push a product past the warranty period while manipulating the TCO figures for the accountants and CAFE for the politicians, instead of working to ensure wear protection would engineer that. Different goals, but not really aligned with the needs of the long-term owner or maximum service life.


I have been a frequent participant on the Lexus forum for years and WS ATF is the only recommended ATF for the LS. Members there have contacted Aisin and were told to use WS in the 04-06 years... I am also sure Maxlife would probably also be fine to use. I have also seen reports where WS is a full synthetic fluid.

Maxlife is a very good ATF and I use it in many different applications and have been very happy with it. My Jag tranny seems to love it. Anyways, your vehicle use what you want...

 

[shinyWheels]

Is this how others are changing your WS fluid out? Special wire for temperature, shift between N and D every 1.5 seconds, drain and refill. Seems complicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ucMJQk9eaI

 

[wirelessF]

There is no huge userbase for the A761E transmission so there won't be as much users who want to experiment with that transmission. I've seen people run Maxlife in the WS trans 4Runners, Tacomas, Corollas, etc with no issues but not with a unicorn transmission like this. Anyways I do have a case of WS and a trans filter kit but being this is not a truck and majority of the work is done underneath this DIY project seems way over my head.