Have any statistics to back that up?
Toyota trucks...for work or for parades?
- Thread starter Jaybird
- Start date
- Status
Sure, while we are on the subject of trucks,the Tundra got the top safety pick for 2008.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=70
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/summary.aspx?class=70
Why Toyota is Better than GM and Ford by James P. Womack
• GM and Ford can't design vehicles that Americans want to pay "Toyota money" for. And this is not a matter of bad bets on product concepts or dumb engineers. It's a matter of Toyota's better engineering system, using simple concepts like chief engineers with real responsibility for products, concurrent and simultaneous engineering practices, and sophisticated knowledge capture methods. The Prius is... the likely result of a development system that tries out many approaches to every problem, then gets the winning concept to the customer very quickly with low engineering cost, low manufacturing cost, and near perfect quality. (That's not to say that Toyota can't produce a dud ...but the likelihood of producing winners is higher ...)
• GM and Ford are clueless as to how to work with their suppliers. Sometimes they try to crush their bones -- which only works when the suppliers have any profits to squeeze, and few currently do. Then they embrace contentless cooperation that ... fails to produce lower costs, higher quality, or new and better technology. Toyota, by contrast, is getting brilliant results and lower prices from American suppliers like Delphi while also giving suppliers adequate profit margins. How? By relentlessly analyzing every step in their shared design and production process to take out the waste and put in the quality.
• GM and Ford have miasmic management cultures. These turn competent people into Dilberts. By contrast, Toyota does a brilliant job of making one person responsible for every key business process... A Dilbert-free environment naturally emerges, but not because everyone has received cultural training to spur teamwork. Rather, if ordinary people -- Dilberts even -- are put in a great business process they become great team players.
• GM and Ford cling to their wide range of brands: Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Saab, GMC, and Hummer at GM; Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, Aston Martin, and Range Rover at Ford. And they still talk about brand revitalization as the way ahead. Yet the most successful car companies in the world -- Toyota and BMW -- have only two or three brands. And this is not an accident. Indeed, it's hard to see how any modern-day car maker can support more than three truly distinctive brands... A plethora of brands that can't pull their weight drains management energy and company coffers.
• GM and Ford still treat customers as strangers engaged in one-time transactions. Toyota's Lexus, by contrast, has created a new and better customer experience. Customers cheerfully pay more for the car and the service and then come back for more cars because they love the treatment. ...
But note: I haven't mentioned the creaky factories, vast pension obligations, and cranky unions that commentators ... seem obsessed with. In fact, Ford and GM's factories are now good enough to compete in terms of labor productivity and quality. They just can't support ... pension and healthcare benefits for retirees as the companies continue to shrink. Union and management both know this, yet ... their conversation has broken down. With zero confidence that management knows what it is doing, a union will try to get what it can now rather than look at the long term. In consequence, unless GM and Ford soon present a plausible path to a brighter future ... there may be no long term.
There is no mystery about the lean business model. All of the elements are operating in this country every day at Toyota and at many other American companies in a range of industries. What is mysterious is why GM and Ford can't embrace it. And what is dismaying is how many of their employees are likely to suffer if they don't. But finally, what is reassuring for the country is that if GM and Ford can't fix their problems, they will simply be replaced by new players in America, led by Toyota, who can.
• GM and Ford can't design vehicles that Americans want to pay "Toyota money" for. And this is not a matter of bad bets on product concepts or dumb engineers. It's a matter of Toyota's better engineering system, using simple concepts like chief engineers with real responsibility for products, concurrent and simultaneous engineering practices, and sophisticated knowledge capture methods. The Prius is... the likely result of a development system that tries out many approaches to every problem, then gets the winning concept to the customer very quickly with low engineering cost, low manufacturing cost, and near perfect quality. (That's not to say that Toyota can't produce a dud ...but the likelihood of producing winners is higher ...)
• GM and Ford are clueless as to how to work with their suppliers. Sometimes they try to crush their bones -- which only works when the suppliers have any profits to squeeze, and few currently do. Then they embrace contentless cooperation that ... fails to produce lower costs, higher quality, or new and better technology. Toyota, by contrast, is getting brilliant results and lower prices from American suppliers like Delphi while also giving suppliers adequate profit margins. How? By relentlessly analyzing every step in their shared design and production process to take out the waste and put in the quality.
• GM and Ford have miasmic management cultures. These turn competent people into Dilberts. By contrast, Toyota does a brilliant job of making one person responsible for every key business process... A Dilbert-free environment naturally emerges, but not because everyone has received cultural training to spur teamwork. Rather, if ordinary people -- Dilberts even -- are put in a great business process they become great team players.
• GM and Ford cling to their wide range of brands: Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, Saab, GMC, and Hummer at GM; Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Jaguar, Volvo, Aston Martin, and Range Rover at Ford. And they still talk about brand revitalization as the way ahead. Yet the most successful car companies in the world -- Toyota and BMW -- have only two or three brands. And this is not an accident. Indeed, it's hard to see how any modern-day car maker can support more than three truly distinctive brands... A plethora of brands that can't pull their weight drains management energy and company coffers.
• GM and Ford still treat customers as strangers engaged in one-time transactions. Toyota's Lexus, by contrast, has created a new and better customer experience. Customers cheerfully pay more for the car and the service and then come back for more cars because they love the treatment. ...
But note: I haven't mentioned the creaky factories, vast pension obligations, and cranky unions that commentators ... seem obsessed with. In fact, Ford and GM's factories are now good enough to compete in terms of labor productivity and quality. They just can't support ... pension and healthcare benefits for retirees as the companies continue to shrink. Union and management both know this, yet ... their conversation has broken down. With zero confidence that management knows what it is doing, a union will try to get what it can now rather than look at the long term. In consequence, unless GM and Ford soon present a plausible path to a brighter future ... there may be no long term.
There is no mystery about the lean business model. All of the elements are operating in this country every day at Toyota and at many other American companies in a range of industries. What is mysterious is why GM and Ford can't embrace it. And what is dismaying is how many of their employees are likely to suffer if they don't. But finally, what is reassuring for the country is that if GM and Ford can't fix their problems, they will simply be replaced by new players in America, led by Toyota, who can.
byez I wasn't responding to your post. I know Toyota and Honda are good. My family has one of each.
byez, wouldnt Toyota dealers care less if you buy, because of the people begging to pay Toyota dollars? of course the ones who want to pay over MSRP get their butt-kissed, theyre paying for it! And I'm sure I can get someone to kiss my butt for less, if not free 
I mean, the personal attention at a Kia dealership would probably trump both GM and Toyota dealers, what would they have to be cocky about? As for Toyota going after GM territory, you're right they are. Theyre going after the extreme-cost-efficient, high-volume, domestic production market. Toyota just has better minds to do their cost cutting and penny pinching. Didn't they even recruit some of the GM bean counters? Alas, GM and Toyota are more similar now than ever and we are seeing the GM (body panel) gap closing in on Toyota, as Toyota's sales and production increases, and quality decreases. But if you're being punished for being loyal to a company that has had great economic success by paying premium prices, you actually deserve it IMO.
I mean, the personal attention at a Kia dealership would probably trump both GM and Toyota dealers, what would they have to be cocky about? As for Toyota going after GM territory, you're right they are. Theyre going after the extreme-cost-efficient, high-volume, domestic production market. Toyota just has better minds to do their cost cutting and penny pinching. Didn't they even recruit some of the GM bean counters? Alas, GM and Toyota are more similar now than ever and we are seeing the GM (body panel) gap closing in on Toyota, as Toyota's sales and production increases, and quality decreases. But if you're being punished for being loyal to a company that has had great economic success by paying premium prices, you actually deserve it IMO."Japanese cars in general age better, perform better in crash tests & will hold their resale value better than any domestic.
If you disagree, you are not drawing a line in the sand rather you have your head in it."
Our Honda Civic only lasted 120k miles before the blue smoke and uneven compression led us to donate it. If I see a blue smoker these days for some reason it's usually a Civic or Accord.
We looked at Japanese cars before getting rid of it and they don't even offer a six seat sedan; if you don't offer a product it's obviously not the greatest thing around. Such was the case for the next two cars and the truck that we bought; THEY DIDN'T MAKE WHAT WE WANTED, SO THEY DON'T OFFER THE BEST PRODUCT. Regardless, a 3/4 ton or 1 ton Dodge pickup is the longest lasting non-commecial vehicle you can buy in the US. If you information that suggests otherwise then state it.
If you disagree, you are not drawing a line in the sand rather you have your head in it."
Our Honda Civic only lasted 120k miles before the blue smoke and uneven compression led us to donate it. If I see a blue smoker these days for some reason it's usually a Civic or Accord.
We looked at Japanese cars before getting rid of it and they don't even offer a six seat sedan; if you don't offer a product it's obviously not the greatest thing around. Such was the case for the next two cars and the truck that we bought; THEY DIDN'T MAKE WHAT WE WANTED, SO THEY DON'T OFFER THE BEST PRODUCT. Regardless, a 3/4 ton or 1 ton Dodge pickup is the longest lasting non-commecial vehicle you can buy in the US. If you information that suggests otherwise then state it.
"Buying only American does not make you a true American, it makes you a poor consumer."
I don't only American, as I stated. I'll buy the best product at the price point that meets my needs, and it's obviously not always Japanese. You appear to have little, if any knowledge about the products that I referred to as you didn't provide any counter examples, instead you choose to malign me.
You're a moron, and so far have provided evidence of being one based upon your reply.
I don't only American, as I stated. I'll buy the best product at the price point that meets my needs, and it's obviously not always Japanese. You appear to have little, if any knowledge about the products that I referred to as you didn't provide any counter examples, instead you choose to malign me.
You're a moron, and so far have provided evidence of being one based upon your reply.
Originally Posted By: njcruiser
NOt one US customer has ever taken apart boards, looking for visual defects. The Japanese do..........truth be told, they improved our quality overall.
Sorry.
I've made the observation that every, yes, every single piece of equipment I've owned with circuit boards in it that had jumper wires (to fix a board layout screwup or a defective trace on a multilayer board) on it has eventually failed.
NOt one US customer has ever taken apart boards, looking for visual defects. The Japanese do..........truth be told, they improved our quality overall.
Sorry.
I've made the observation that every, yes, every single piece of equipment I've owned with circuit boards in it that had jumper wires (to fix a board layout screwup or a defective trace on a multilayer board) on it has eventually failed.
But then doesn't EVERY board eventually fail?
What you just said is really meaningless without something to compare.
Do they fail earlier, later, what?
What you just said is really meaningless without something to compare.
Do they fail earlier, later, what?
Last edited:
Nope. Not every board eventually fails. Most get put in the trash when they're still working fine because they're obsolete. (I guess you could consider them as having failed when they go through the trash compactor...) Yes, they would eventually fail if they were kept in service--but whether that would happen in 10 years, 20 years, 40 years, or what I simply don't know or care because the board is no longer useful.
These boards with the "rework" jumpers failed long before they were ready for the trash. In fact one of them, an ESDI controller, failed before the hard drive it was attached to. (Incidentally that hard drive and the 386 computer it was installed in finally went in the trash recently because I was sick of it taking space. Both worked fine the last time I used them years ago).
These boards with the "rework" jumpers failed long before they were ready for the trash. In fact one of them, an ESDI controller, failed before the hard drive it was attached to. (Incidentally that hard drive and the 386 computer it was installed in finally went in the trash recently because I was sick of it taking space. Both worked fine the last time I used them years ago).
All that proves is it hasn't failed yet!
But I get your point.
Things are often trashed because the costs of servicing them exceeds the costs of new items.
We End of Service Life (EOSL) equipment all the time. It's usually 5-10 years after we stopped selling it. Customers want to hang on to that stuff, yet the service contract costs often exceed the price of a replacement unit that is faster, more energy efficient, etc.
Plus, service becomes a "best effort" SLA as we cannot guarantee parts to be there.
We did finally get a local US Army activity to retire their old SparcServer 1000's and 2000's and the attached storage.
But I get your point.
Things are often trashed because the costs of servicing them exceeds the costs of new items.
We End of Service Life (EOSL) equipment all the time. It's usually 5-10 years after we stopped selling it. Customers want to hang on to that stuff, yet the service contract costs often exceed the price of a replacement unit that is faster, more energy efficient, etc.
Plus, service becomes a "best effort" SLA as we cannot guarantee parts to be there.
We did finally get a local US Army activity to retire their old SparcServer 1000's and 2000's and the attached storage.
Based on personal experiences, I feel that, while it may have been true in the past, the belief that Japanese cars have better build quality is false. We have five cars in the family, two of them being Japanese. Here is a list of problems that have occurred:
Domestics:
Trans Sport - few broken bulbs, leaking shocks, transmission failure (due to lack of maintenance), rear washer spray motor check valve cracked, and monkey pulled off the rear window washer spray nozzle
Escort - blower motor resistor rusted, rear spring cracked, SPI engine NVH issues
Escape - no failures to date
Imports:
Lancer - delayed engagement in transmission until it was switched to Dexron VI, power steering squeal, eating accessory belts even though properly tensioned and all pulleys spin freely, and trunk latch is improperly adjusted so it has to be slammed every time
MDX - coil pack failure, CD player jammed, driver's side ball joint, three solder cracks in DRL module leading to no DRLs or high beams, rear wiper arm seized, hood latch is improperly adjusted, and the transmission is shuddering despite 2x recommended maintenance
I don't see a big difference in reliability. Either domestic quality has gone up, or Japanese quality has come down. Either way, I don't feel there is a decided "winner" and with lower perceived market value, I would probably go with a domestic vehicle.
Domestics:
Trans Sport - few broken bulbs, leaking shocks, transmission failure (due to lack of maintenance), rear washer spray motor check valve cracked, and monkey pulled off the rear window washer spray nozzle
Escort - blower motor resistor rusted, rear spring cracked, SPI engine NVH issues
Escape - no failures to date
Imports:
Lancer - delayed engagement in transmission until it was switched to Dexron VI, power steering squeal, eating accessory belts even though properly tensioned and all pulleys spin freely, and trunk latch is improperly adjusted so it has to be slammed every time
MDX - coil pack failure, CD player jammed, driver's side ball joint, three solder cracks in DRL module leading to no DRLs or high beams, rear wiper arm seized, hood latch is improperly adjusted, and the transmission is shuddering despite 2x recommended maintenance
I don't see a big difference in reliability. Either domestic quality has gone up, or Japanese quality has come down. Either way, I don't feel there is a decided "winner" and with lower perceived market value, I would probably go with a domestic vehicle.
Originally Posted By: Squishy
and the transmission is shuddering despite 2x recommended maintenance
Transmission shudder in the MDX means that the torque converter is failing. Get it to the dealer ASAP as it's likely to be covered under the extended warranty (or goodwilled 100%).
and the transmission is shuddering despite 2x recommended maintenance
Transmission shudder in the MDX means that the torque converter is failing. Get it to the dealer ASAP as it's likely to be covered under the extended warranty (or goodwilled 100%).
That's pretty much what we're expecting. We never got the settlement here in Canada and we're way out of even the settlement's extended warranty coverage (nearing 200,000 miles). Acura dealers here don't treat transmission failures the same as in the States.
Originally Posted By: Squishy
That's pretty much what we're expecting. We never got the settlement here in Canada and we're way out of even the settlement's extended warranty coverage (nearing 200,000 miles). Acura dealers here don't treat transmission failures the same as in the States.
I know the TLs are covered in Canada for at least 7-years or 175,000 KM. I moderate a 2G TL forum and that's what I've been told by some Canadian members.
It's still worth a try to see if the dealer will cover it. Even on very high mileage units, we've seen them cover 50% of the cost.
That's pretty much what we're expecting. We never got the settlement here in Canada and we're way out of even the settlement's extended warranty coverage (nearing 200,000 miles). Acura dealers here don't treat transmission failures the same as in the States.
I know the TLs are covered in Canada for at least 7-years or 175,000 KM. I moderate a 2G TL forum and that's what I've been told by some Canadian members.
It's still worth a try to see if the dealer will cover it. Even on very high mileage units, we've seen them cover 50% of the cost.
I'll give it a shot, thanks.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Things are often trashed because the costs of servicing them exceeds the costs of new items.
It's not even that. The 386 with a 600MB ESDI drive worked fine..it, however, is incapable of running modern applications.
This is like junking your 10-year-old 27" CRT TV set which works fine because you want a 31" LCD HDTV.
Most electronic equipment runs without repairs or service until it is obsolete. This has generally been my experience with computer equipment and other electronics. The notable exceptions have been those with rework jumpers and cheap Chinese capacitors that fail.
For example, I expect 17" CRT monitors to last longer than 2 years. The old 14" monitors from the early 90s generally lasted 10 years or longer. Would you want to use a 10-year-old monitor? Probably not. However, a 2 year old 17" CRT is still perfectly serviceable assuming that it hasn't failed. And yet I had one fail, due to one of the capacitors inside leaking and destroying the board.
I guess the point here is that it IS possible to build electronic equipment that lasts until it's old enough that nobody wants to use it anymore.
Maybe that's the problem--the lifecycle of this equipment is too long and it's got to be made to fail sooner so replacements can be sold.
Things are often trashed because the costs of servicing them exceeds the costs of new items.
It's not even that. The 386 with a 600MB ESDI drive worked fine..it, however, is incapable of running modern applications.
This is like junking your 10-year-old 27" CRT TV set which works fine because you want a 31" LCD HDTV.
Most electronic equipment runs without repairs or service until it is obsolete. This has generally been my experience with computer equipment and other electronics. The notable exceptions have been those with rework jumpers and cheap Chinese capacitors that fail.
For example, I expect 17" CRT monitors to last longer than 2 years. The old 14" monitors from the early 90s generally lasted 10 years or longer. Would you want to use a 10-year-old monitor? Probably not. However, a 2 year old 17" CRT is still perfectly serviceable assuming that it hasn't failed. And yet I had one fail, due to one of the capacitors inside leaking and destroying the board.
I guess the point here is that it IS possible to build electronic equipment that lasts until it's old enough that nobody wants to use it anymore.
Maybe that's the problem--the lifecycle of this equipment is too long and it's got to be made to fail sooner so replacements can be sold.
I wonder how many TVs will be trashed because of the digital TV thing coming up soon?
Sure it's possible. Look at how long most military gear lasts. The problem is, folks are not willing to pay for it, and second, manufacturers need consumers to buy new stuff every so often.
I just got rid of a 13" or 14" CRT that I bought in 1991. It was only 1024x768 and that was interlaced. It was made by Hyundai and probably the most robust monitor I ever owned. It ended up being the head on one of my linux boxes, as it really wasn't suited for modern graphics.
I gave it away to the Salvation Army.
I don't think I've had but one monitor failure that wasn't my fault. (I dropped a 20" CRT in that same move last summer when I tried to move a desk with the stuff on it. Bad move!) Back in 1990 or so, I had a Magnavox monitor fail. I was in Germany and Philips wouldn't fix it there, so I had to ship it back to TN for repairs. It came back, still broken, so I took the back off and started fiddling with the potentiometers until I could see a display.
I have to this day still not purchased another Philips/Magnavox product, based on how they treated me 18 or so years ago.
But technology advances, and it often is not cost effective to keep using the old stuff. It uses more power, it's slower and less capable.
The cheap Chinese capacitors is just a symptom of the trying to build things as cheaply as possible.
I guess I see a lot of things fail, in my line of work. So both the old and the new stuff breaks. I'd say the reverse bell curve is accurate. There is a spike in infant mortality repairs as well as end of life repairs.
Gotta run, customer calls.
Sure it's possible. Look at how long most military gear lasts. The problem is, folks are not willing to pay for it, and second, manufacturers need consumers to buy new stuff every so often.
I just got rid of a 13" or 14" CRT that I bought in 1991. It was only 1024x768 and that was interlaced. It was made by Hyundai and probably the most robust monitor I ever owned. It ended up being the head on one of my linux boxes, as it really wasn't suited for modern graphics.
I gave it away to the Salvation Army.
I don't think I've had but one monitor failure that wasn't my fault. (I dropped a 20" CRT in that same move last summer when I tried to move a desk with the stuff on it. Bad move!) Back in 1990 or so, I had a Magnavox monitor fail. I was in Germany and Philips wouldn't fix it there, so I had to ship it back to TN for repairs. It came back, still broken, so I took the back off and started fiddling with the potentiometers until I could see a display.
I have to this day still not purchased another Philips/Magnavox product, based on how they treated me 18 or so years ago.
But technology advances, and it often is not cost effective to keep using the old stuff. It uses more power, it's slower and less capable.
The cheap Chinese capacitors is just a symptom of the trying to build things as cheaply as possible.
I guess I see a lot of things fail, in my line of work. So both the old and the new stuff breaks. I'd say the reverse bell curve is accurate. There is a spike in infant mortality repairs as well as end of life repairs.
Gotta run, customer calls.
I worked for an ISP which sold dedicated servers, there were probably a couple hundred online at the time I was still dealing with the hardware directly.
Most of what failed were hard drives. Usually these failed right after the data center air conditioning did. After that it was power supplies, but power supply failures were pretty rare and mostly involved the fan no longer working. ([censored] sleeve-bearing fans, I'm sure). I don't think I ever had a CPU, memory, video card or motherboard failure(other than motherboards just not working right out of the box; if they worked they continued to work).
I did have some network card failures, most of those were caused by a design flaw in the transceiver on the particular network card they were using. The manufacturer released a revised version of the network card to solve that problem.
Of course this was all before China redefined the reliability of electrolytic capacitors
Most of what failed were hard drives. Usually these failed right after the data center air conditioning did. After that it was power supplies, but power supply failures were pretty rare and mostly involved the fan no longer working. ([censored] sleeve-bearing fans, I'm sure). I don't think I ever had a CPU, memory, video card or motherboard failure(other than motherboards just not working right out of the box; if they worked they continued to work).
I did have some network card failures, most of those were caused by a design flaw in the transceiver on the particular network card they were using. The manufacturer released a revised version of the network card to solve that problem.
Of course this was all before China redefined the reliability of electrolytic capacitors
7200 pound GVWR with a 5.4 litre Ford, 5.3 litre GM, Hemi Dodge and a 5.7 litre Toyota comparing regular cab, long box, four wheel drive trucks. Or go to extended cab, short box (6.5'), and throw the Nissan Titan in there too as they all come out roughly the same payload.
I feel that would be as close of comparison as you could get for half-tons, and the long box and four wheel drive would be work trucks for sure.
One issue is Toyota markets their truck as if it is as capable as a 3/4 ton when it isn't.
My dad gets F-150HD trucks for work use and they are an absolute beast as far as half tons are concerned and every bit as much truck as a GM 2500HD, but much more liveable.
I feel that would be as close of comparison as you could get for half-tons, and the long box and four wheel drive would be work trucks for sure.
One issue is Toyota markets their truck as if it is as capable as a 3/4 ton when it isn't.
My dad gets F-150HD trucks for work use and they are an absolute beast as far as half tons are concerned and every bit as much truck as a GM 2500HD, but much more liveable.
- Status
