Toyota Strategy on EVs - ICE - h2

[alarmguy]

^^^ Yes, I think I agree if I am reading this right. But the only thing I dont know or understand is how much mining is required to make a catalyst for a fuel cell compared to a full size EV battery and the implications of methane ect of producing hydrogen. More or less this stuff sounds manageable to me compared to tearing up 200,000 to 1 million tons of the earth for one lithium battery and then actually extract the elements needed.

I should make clear I am not concerned about using fossil fuels ( I acknowledge others are, Im not part of that movement) and if I am correct there are ways to manage emissions and use of fossil fuels to make h2. If that Seimens project in Australia and Germany is correct Im not even sure they are using fossil.
Electricity is your speciality. This is just stuff I run across. I think we can agree as of right now there is not enough power generation in the USA to support an all or even part EV world without new power plants and infrastructure.
To me h2 seems to be the ticket, not saying I am right but I think (not knowing the facts) h2 would be a better solution, long term.
Yes, ok, a National effort to get Nuclear power plants on line in the USA could but I dont see that happening anytime soon.

Just for reference this is the stuff I am reading but I would call it "surface reading" without digging into the details.
https://press.siemens.com/global/en...bon-free-hydrogen-generation-plants-wunsiedel

murchison-renewable-hydrogen-project.html

https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/priorities/future-technologies/hydrogen.html

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/newsroom/2021/11/211110-siemens-gamesa-green-hydrogen-to-vehicles

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/products-and-services/hybrid-and-storage/green-hydrogen

https://www.h2-tech.com/news/2021/1...rs-first-green-h2-to-zero-emissions-vehicles/
*LOL* I just posted these to give an idea where I got these ideas but the specific story I wanted I cant find ... and I have a house to get ready to sell!

 

[OVERKILL]

^^^ Yes, I think I agree if I am reading this right. But the only thing I dont know or understand is how much mining is required to make a catalyst for a fuel cell compared to a full size EV battery and the implications of methane ect of producing hydrogen. More or less this stuff sounds manageable to me compared to tearing up 200,000 to 1 million tons of the earth for one lithium battery and then actually extract the elements needed.

I should make clear I am not concerned about using fossil fuels ( I acknowledge others are, Im not part of that movement) and if I am correct there are ways to manage emissions and use of fossil fuels to make h2. If that Seimens project in Australia and Germany is correct Im not even sure they are using fossil.
Electricity is your speciality. This is just stuff I run across. I think we can agree as of right now there is not enough power generation in the USA to support an all or even part EV world without new power plants and infrastructure.
To me h2 seems to be the ticket, not saying I am right but I think (not knowing the facts) h2 would be a better solution, long term.
Yes, ok, a National effort to get Nuclear power plants on line in the USA could but I dont see that happening anytime soon.

Just for reference this is the stuff I am reading but I would call it "surface reading" without digging into the details.
https://press.siemens.com/global/en...bon-free-hydrogen-generation-plants-wunsiedel

murchison-renewable-hydrogen-project.html

https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/priorities/future-technologies/hydrogen.html

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/newsroom/2021/11/211110-siemens-gamesa-green-hydrogen-to-vehicles

https://www.siemensgamesa.com/products-and-services/hybrid-and-storage/green-hydrogen

https://www.h2-tech.com/news/2021/1...rs-first-green-h2-to-zero-emissions-vehicles/
*LOL* I just posted these to give an idea where I got these ideas but the specific story I wanted I cant find ... and I have a house to get ready to sell!

You have to consider the scale of these projects. 95% of the world's hydrogen is produced using methane reformation. The German project, your first link for example, is 8.75MW, which is absolutely tiny, and produces "up to 1,350 tons of hydrogen", global production was 95 million tons.

Also, the power is claimed to be renewable, while Germany is currently burning obscene amounts of coal, making it probably less emissions friendly than methane reformation, lol.

A good article on hydrogen is here, by the IEA:
https://www.iea.org/reports/hydrogen

Of note:

Global hydrogen demand reached 94 Mt in 2021, a 5% increase on demand in 2020, driven mainly by the recovery of activity in the chemical sector and refining. Moreover, hydrogen demand surpassed its historical maximum of 91 Mt achieved in 2019. However, most of this demand was met by hydrogen produced from unabated fossil fuels, with deleterious effects on the climate.

Hydrogen demand remains concentrated in traditional applications in the refining and chemical sectors, with very limited penetration in new applications. Demand in new applications, such as transport, high-temperature heat in industry, hydrogen-based DRI, power and buildings, grew by 60% in 2021 to reach around 40 kt H2, which only represents 0.04% of global hydrogen demand. Most of this demand is concentrated in road transport, which observed a significant increase as a result of the accelerated deployment of FCEVs, particularly fuel cell heavy-duty trucks in China.

Hydrogen production today is primarily based on fossil fuel technologies, with over a sixth of the global hydrogen supply coming from “by-product” hydrogen, mainly from facilities and processes in the petrochemical industry.

Low-emission production represented less than 1% of total hydrogen production over the last three years. In 2021 low-emission hydrogen production grew by 9%, reflecting the growth in commissioning projects. More than 200 MW of electrolysers started operating in 2021, including 160 MW in China and more than 30 MW in Europe.

In the Net Zero Scenario, low-emission hydrogen production accounts for around 95 Mt, more than half of global hydrogen production by 2030. Around two-thirds of this production is based on electrolysis, whereas another third is hydrogen produced from fossil fuels with CCUS. This will require an installed capacity of more than 700 GW of electrolysers, which is equivalent to a hydrogen output of 128 Mt/year, and a production capacity of around 37 Mt/year of hydrogen in plants using fossil fuel with CCUS facilities.

So while these projects might appear "flash", unless you understand the numbers being tossed around, it's pretty easy to be misled on both the scale and scope of the problem, and the role/significance that these "no emissions" projects claim to play.

 

[alarmguy]

^^ well said and I know you are very knowledgeable on the subject, I only know what news and stories I only skim over and I am a skeptic by nature if you haven't noticed by now

 

[PimTac]

These discussions are informative.

It seems that landfill methane is underutilized. I wonder if hydrogen production could be done using that gas and if it would be cost effective?

 

[OVERKILL]

These discussions are informative.

It seems that landfill methane is underutilized. I wonder if hydrogen production could be done using that gas and if it would be cost effective?

Sure, but that's methane reformation.

 

[SeaJay]

I should make clear I am not concerned about using fossil fuels ( I acknowledge others are, Im not part of that movement)

I am also not concerned. To a degree it is self-correcting as eventually they will get so scarce that most people will be unable to afford using fossil fuels. They were wrong but 15 or 20 years ago "peal oil" was declared. It has got to run out someday.