Toyota Resale Values Tank

[Kernel Potter]

Originally Posted By: Amkeer

To reiterate:

-Tacoma- UAW assembled at NUMMI plant Fremont, California.
-Tundra- assembled at San Antonio plant, 90% North American
parts.


Unless you buy one of the Toyota Tacomas that are made in Mexico

 

[Big_3_Only]

well, unless toyota motor company pays it's assembly line workers more than its CEO, then when you go buy one of those little goofy japanese trucks.....the majority of the profit from the sale of that tin can goes back to TOKYO JAPAN!!!

You fellas need to face facts and stop talking about WHERE a vehicle was ASSEMBLED. I would love for every single part in my General Motors vehicles to be AMERICAN MADE. I'd love for every single car made by the BIG 3 to be ASSEMBLED in the USA. But they aren't. So I will take buying an AMERICAN vehicle that was ASSEMBLED in Mexico or Canada over buying some japanese vehicle that was ASSEMBLED in San Antonio. A tundra is a JAPANESE VEHICLE. Regardless of where it was ASSEMBLED. Sidenote: it's also ugly as sin.

The world isn't perfect, but you people trying to blurr the lines between what is AMERICAN and what is japanese need to realize that there is a reason toyota, honda, nissan, etc...will not move their headquarters to the United States. It's because they're JAPANESE. They love their country. They want those companies to be a part of the japanese economy and they want to support the japanese economy with their profits.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are AMERICAN companies. They're headquartered in the USA. When you buy one of those awesome Ford, Chevy, or Dodge trucks....where do you think the bulk of that 40k you just dropped goes? To the guy who screwed it together? Heck no, it goes up to the Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoneer section of the company. That's great. I like those guys.

The money also goes to pay the retired GM, Ford, and Chrysler workers insurance, etc...Some of those guys spent 40-50 years working at those companies and living in this country...supporting this country.

You guys make this a tired argument. There is a difference between foreign and domestic. I don't give a turkey where you were born, what color you are, or what your ancestors look like. Toyota is japanese. General Motors is AMERICAN. If you want to buy one if those goofy tundra things and look like a jerk driving down the road....then take off there good buddy. But I think you should of bought an AMERICAN truck. and I'll keep trying educate goofballs everywhere about the fact that buying American is the way to go....

 

[ArrestMeRedZ]

And don't forget, the foreign automakers don't ever show much of a profit on their American auto sales no matter how much they make. They just "adjust" the price of their foreign-sourced parts upwards to an unreasomable level to keep their profits in another country. This lets them cheat on corporate income taxes here.
Welcome to the world of international finance.

 

[javacontour]

Originally Posted By: ArrestMeRedZ
And don't forget, the foreign automakers don't ever show much of a profit on their American auto sales no matter how much they make. They just "adjust" the price of their foreign-sourced parts upwards to an unreasomable level to keep their profits in another country. This lets them cheat on corporate income taxes here.
Welcome to the world of international finance.


So why not buy ADR's, like I and others have said before? You CAN make money owning a bit of Toyota.

You don't think "domestic" automaker stock is totally US owned? Of course not, folks from all over the world own stock in GM and Ford. So doesn't that money go overseas too?

The vehicle I own doesn't make me a real ANYTHING. It doesn't make me a real man or a real American.

What makes an American an American is freedom. That includes the freedom to buy or not buy whatever I want.

The enemy to America is not buying foreign cars. The real enemy are those who seek to take away choices. So those who argue for fewer choices, for litmus tests and so forth are far more problematic and anti-American that I would ever dream to be by owning a Toyota, Honda or Mazda now that Mazda is no longer in the Ford family.

A Chevy or Ford does as much to make one a real American as buying male enhancement suppliments touted on TV or in the back of car magazines makes you a real man.

Personally, I don't need a car to make up for any patriotic shortcomings.

 

[rationull]

You know, these discussions can be interesting, even if they're all tired rehashings of the same arguments most of the time. I just want to say that while compelling arguments can be made on both sides of the fence, statements like:

"Real Americans buy American Cars!"

seem to me to be nothing but inflammatory, chest-thumping hot air. Make an argument based on how it helps the economy to keep corporate profits in the US, fine. Argue that currency exchange has historically given imports an advantage, fine. A lot of the people here on either side can formulate a better and more informed argument on this subject than I can so I won't even bother providing more examples.

But provide an *argument*. Do not assert that countless American citizens, veterans, businessmen, etc are not "real Americans" because of their choice in automobile purchase. That's just disrespectful.

Careful though, you might not want to take my word. I drive a Honda, so I'm kind of a traitor.

 

[smokey1]

HONDAs' resale value is taking a dive as well . Compared YARIS hatchback / FIT and the FIT resale not much more . With lower gas prices and slow economy it's hurting all makes and models . The large rebates / dealer discounts don't help resale as well . Why buy a used '08 base model YARIS 5 speed L.B. for $10,500 when a new '09 can be had for about less than $12,000 . The '09 comes with A.B.S. , SIDE CURTAIN AIRBAGS , and SIDE IMPACT AIR BAGS , in the '08s this wasn't a standard feature .

 

[dishdude]

Yeah the value of everything is tanking, a lot of people are holding on to their dollars tightly if they even have any to hold on to!

Whenever great deals are to be had on brand new cars, the deals on used cars need to be even sweeter for someone to consider used over new.

 

[javacontour]

Exactly.

How does one expect to win folks to a point of view by insulting those who don't agree.

Frankly, when someone tries to pigeon hole me by an argument such as Real.... then I'm far more likely to either completely ignore them, or do the opposite because their plea is not about how their product, idea, etc is better, but about personality.

I'm buying a car, not citizenship. My car doesn't make me feel anything, or make me better.

Like I said in other threads, there are millions who experienced bad quality with domestics and have had good luck with Honda's Toyota's and others.

Those experiences are going to do more to shape their next purchase than anything.

Here is what I see, for what it's worth. For years the domestics didn't take Japanese cars seriously. They rested on their laurels and simply believed folks would keep buying domestic.

The Japanese cars when they first arrived WERE inferior. However, they wanted to crack the market, so they made their cars better and better. I believe domestic car makers didn't improve at the same rate. At first, that was OK because they were in the lead, both in quality and in market share. However, that changed quickly.

The energy crisis in the 1970's gave them a foot in the door. It played to their strengths. Highly efficient cars that people soon learned were quite durable. The domestics didn't adapt as well. The Vega was a prime example, bodies that rusted out and the aluminum engines that were out of round and used oil very early in the life of the car. The Pinto was better, but not by much. Chrysler was really late to the game with the Omni/Horizon, relying upon re-badged Mitsubishi cars, introducing more folks to Japanese cars. The Japanese didn't need to be that much better when the competition in that space was the Pinto and Vega. So more and more customers were lost to Japanse car makers and may have stayed away.

Ditto in the truck market with Ford and GM importing Mazda and Isuzu (not sure, but I think the LUV was an Isuzu) respectively, introducing even more Americans to Japanese products. This really didn't impact large truck sales because there was no Japanese product. But it did introduce even more folks to imported vehicles.

The Japanese learned and many consumers learned these were good quality cars and trucks.

Many who had bad experiences with "domestic" car makers took advantage of other opportunities in the marketplace.

Meanwhile, "domestics" were still slow to make changes, while Japanese car makers were more rapidly improving their offerings. Their cars went more and more upscale. Cars like the Civic in the 1970's were tiny and now the Civic is about the size of the 1st generation Accord. The Accord is much larger today and the Honda Fit is more along the size of the 1st Civic we had in the US.

But these cars are largely in the marketplace today because there was a hole in the offerings when they came in, or in many cases, they were introduced by a domestic car maker. I.E. Mitsubishi and Chrysler's relationship. There are similar relationships between Ford and Mazda as well as GM and Isuzu.

Others tried and failed. Other European makes have all but stopped doing business here, specifically French, Italian and for the most part British car makers. So at a time when having small cars should have been good, UK, French and Italian car makers really couldn't get traction in the US marketplace, and they dropped out. This too made for more room for Japanese cars. That was an opportunity lost by domestic car makers as they didn't go after that market with cars that offered all the good things about such European cars such as superior handling and fuel economy without the bad that came with them such as spotty reliability and difficulty to service, find parts, etc. So I see that as another opportunity lost by the US car makers.

A few British makes have "survived" such as Jaguar and Ranger Rover, and the Germans have done well here.

But it seems odd to me that only the Japanese are singled out for the Buy American sentiment. I don't think the doors are any more open to selling Chevy's and US produced Fords in Europe, yet claims of one-sided trade are offered up as reason not to buy Japanese cars.

How many Chevy Cobalts are sold in Germany or the UK? Sure, they have Opels and Vauxhalls but don't really sell "US GM or Ford cars.

 

[smokey1]

don't forget GM had the electric car which it dropped and recalled most / all those vehicles and then junked them . It's all about profit and collaboration with big oil . Most likely government officials had / have their hands in the till as well . Therefore , GM and other AMERICAN car manufacturers could / should have been ahead of the FOREIGN car makers today . Thus , maybe we wouldn't be in this financial fiasco that oil and other resources have help contribute to .

 

[Big_3_Only]

Real Americans buy American cars...infamatory?? Chest thumping?? Whatever...

I've never said buying japanese (or german) makes one unpatriotic. I do however believe that making a concerted effort to buy American products, is a patriotic thing to do.

While I think everyone should drive whatever they want, I can't stand people basing those decisions on information that is false. Things like American cars are inferior in quality, if you want a fuel efficent car you have to buy a foreign one, if you want a car that lasts a long time you have to buy foreign. I hear those kinds of ignorant statements all the time. toyota has done it's best to perpetuate those ideas. They are false.

toyota has copied many American car designs for the vehicles they have now. They copied the F150 when they designed the tundra. The Tahoe/Suburban when they did the sequoia. And now since GM is coming out with the Volt, all of a sudden toyota is going to have a plug in hybrid by 2010. That's not innovation, that's copying other people's ingenuity.

The japanese and germans make a good car. But they're not superior to American cars. I've owned all of them and just like the Cadillac I just bought my wife. It's better in every respect than the 5 series BMW we had. Americans, for a very long time, have automatically attached a certain amount of sophistication to anything from europe. A label that many times is wrongly attached.

This has gotten far from the original topic which was toyota's resale value has dropped. I think there are many reasons it's fallen off and like I originally said I think it's mainly due to the economy being off. My sidenote was that toyotas are not all they're cracked up to be.

GM and Ford are doing quite well in the hybrid/alternative fuel areas. Ford's fusion hybrid is kicking the camry hybrid's tail. The Chevrolet Volt is going to change the entire market. toyota has already been trashing GM's technology that they're using in the Volt, because it's a serious threat to their prius. It's a threat because it's BETTER. you'd think with how environmentally friendly toyota is, they would want new and better ideas and technology (you know, for the good of the world). but instead, they're trying to discredit GM's use of lithium ion batteries in the Volt, mainly because they have a huge investment in the market of Nickel metal hydride batteries and they don't want to have to change technologies. I don't like toyota as a company.

The Big 3 are vital to this country as we know it. If they didn't make great cars and trucks...I wouldn't support them. But they make the best cars and trucks in the world and as corporations....they're on their way to becoming better.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Oh well..i still love my toyota.


Yep, me too. I'm drivin' one, lovin' it, and not worrying about it. I've finally got myself to where I won't ever HAVE to sell, and I can FEEL what this car is worth. Better than the Civic I drove for a decade, vastly superior to the four GM nightmares I endured during the years I chose to go through that. Hey, no car is perfect -- and no car ever will be, irrespective of where it's made.

All I can do is speak from my own experience. Every time I've tried a domestic make, I've been terribly disappointed (my wife's 90 Mercury Sable wagon was a refreshing exception). My 82 VW was great, my 04 G35 was very good, and all the Toyotas have been outstanding. Others' experiences may differ, but that's been mine...

Market be da#^%% -- at least with my Toyota, if I HAVE to keep driving it because I can't get what I want in trade (or for sale), I can just keep driving it.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Big_3_Only
Real Americans buy American cars...infamatory?? Chest thumping?? Whatever...

Yeah, whatever. I've been a Unites States Marine for almost 30 years, and risen to the rank of Colonel. I don't think anyone can challenge my "Real American cred", and I insist upon my right to choose the vehicles I feel are best, and best suited to what I need.

Originally Posted By: Big_3_Only
toyota has copied many American car designs for the vehicles they have now. They copied the F150 when they designed the tundra. The Tahoe/Suburban when they did the sequoia. And now since GM is coming out with the Volt, all of a sudden toyota is going to have a plug in hybrid by 2010. That's not innovation, that's copying other people's ingenuity.

Oh come now. GM is miles behind in the hybrid and electric car race. Plug-in hybrids are are a distractor compared to REGENERATIVE hybrids (as all the Toyota/Lex HSD cars are). The Volt's appeal is not that it's a "plug-in" hybrid, but rather, that's it's a serial hybrid instead of a parallel hybrid. The hybrids "recycle" energy that other cars waste as heat in their brakes. The "plug-ins" just force you to pay a larger electric bill to your utility company, instead of a larger bill to the oil companies. The ONLY time a plug-in is worth it is for drivers who only drive very short commutes on a consistent basis. Toyota adding a plug-in option for the new Prius has zero at all to do with the Volt. Toyota won't be "copying" GM until they field a serial hybird -- which I don't see for a very long time, if ever.

 

[GMBoy]

ekpolk -

First, I thank you for your contribution to our country as a Marine. My family is full of veterans - my wife is even a Desert Storm Navy Vet.

BUT - One thing that really, really bugs me is that I notice A LOT of military people drive foreign cars. Why is that? You'd think that being involved in the country like this they'd all buy American. My wife says its because the foreign cars are cheaper since enlisted folks don't make a lot of money. What is your take? When I hear Marine, I think tough guys and maybe they would drive Silverados or F-250's - not exactly a Prius. I am not knocking you or anyone, I always read and respect your posts!

 

[mstrjon32]

Originally Posted By: smokey1
don't forget GM had the electric car which it dropped and recalled most / all those vehicles and then junked them . It's all about profit and collaboration with big oil . Most likely government officials had / have their hands in the till as well . Therefore , GM and other AMERICAN car manufacturers could / should have been ahead of the FOREIGN car makers today . Thus , maybe we wouldn't be in this financial fiasco that oil and other resources have help contribute to .


Ever heard of the Rav4 EV? It was the EV that Toyota produced to meet now defunct California ZEV emission requirements. It was inferior to the EV1 in basically every way. There was no technology advantage that Toyota had over GM at that time. The only reason they decided to scrap the EV1's was because they were leasing them at a huge profit loss, as was Toyota with the Rav4 EV. Neither company is interested in selling cars that don't make money.

The reason GM got itself into hot water was because they foolishly invested in big trucks and SUV's. And, I have to say, I don't blame them, up until very recently, they were a major cash cow. Toyota decided to invest in the smaller cars/electric cars first, which was a good call on their part, but they're hardly exempt from being guilty of chasing the buck. Ever seen the monstrosities they call the Tundra and the Sequoia? Toyota is green my [censored]. They had a better outlook and a better marketing department.

My problems with Toyota started when this screw GM attitude started. I love the way every media moron has praised Toyota for being this saint of a company. It's just not true.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
IMO, Cheap price equals cheap car. Good price equals good car.

Sorry to tell you this buddy but, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

The reason they discount so heavily doesn't necessarily mean the vehicle is of poor quality. But it sends the WRONG message to the client purchasing the vehicle. " Hey, buy me i'm cheap ".


I think you're wrong. The Big 3 has to keep a level of production going due to economy of scale and the bills that they had to pay. The Asians did not. They only produced enough of the units to keep them in demand. If they wanted to they could idle a plant (they didn't have to for a long time)

One has demand driven pricing. The other had cost driven pricing.

Now that Toyota is so big, they will suffer the same ills of not being able to stop on a dime when stuff gets upset. They'll lose less money in the process ..but lose they will.

It has nothing to do with quality or style. They've produced some of the most oddball ugly stuff and some of the most problematic stuff.


The bills GM has to pay?.........Let's open this up for discussion then.
Who exactly is IN CHARGE of the bills they have to pay?
CEO's, Presidents, and top officials within the company, right?
So who exactly is at fault for their demize? THEMSELVES, right?
They are in complete control (or they should be), and they must be or they won't last too long. Which it seems as though they have screwed up big time, and need to start all over again.
The asians however, have been in good control for over 70 years now in the USA. And they seem to be doing fine. Obviously, they have made some wise decisions in order to stay in business turning profits. ( which is what business is all about isn't it? )
If the asians are only putting out enough product that they forecast selling. Then, this is SMART business. It wouldn't make any sense to produce 1000 vehicles if you forecast only selling 750. Would it?

From what i understand, most of toyota's plants are not in bed with the UAW union. If toyota keeps it that way, they will be just fine. If they buy into it, then they'll be in the same boat GM & Chrysler are in.

To run a successful business there are 3 things that top the list all in order:

#1--Customer is always first. This is MOST important.
#2--Company profits for growth and prosperity.
#3--Employee

Note: This MUST BE IN ORDER.

From all the info i've read about and experienced is: Toyota has taken pretty good care of #'s 1,2, & 3 for the most part. Yeah, it's too bad all of this can be greatly altered by certain Stealerships in the country. But from my perspective, toyota has done me well.

Gary, you of all people should understand that a company cannot make a product for $100 and sale it to the public for $70 and make any money. I'm pretty sure Amsoil is a profitable company, aren't they? Premium product equals premium price. Right?

GM on the other hand have done it bass akwards, starting at #3 first. This is absolutely WRONG. If a company takes care of # 1 & #2 first, then #3 will follow suit. And usually providing better benefits to the employee as well. But obviously, #2 has never been important to them. I'm sorry but, the UAW is so far up their azzes that they CAN'T do the things they have to do to be profitable. It sucks, but it's true.


Don't get me wrong on this; i think GM is making a better vehicle nowadays and i hope they can start a new slate with the UAW association out of the picture. If they do things right, they will RISE above the rest, and their vehicles will once again be a good value. MY expiences with both auto maker's are the reasons for my decision to continue being a loyal Toyota customer. It's too [censored] bad they don't make an XL cargo van.

 

[3Toyotas]

EXACTLY. All it takes is a little research.

I own 4 vehicles made in the USA. GMC Savanna, 07 Tundra, 08 corolla, 99 Toyota Epic boat.

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
You can't tell me the malibu with a bigger motor costed $2410 more than the camry in 2005. If it did though, why did GM give it away?


This statement makes no sense.


If the malibu was $2400 more when new, why is it worth $2400 less now? MOre than likely, the malibu would have been more when new. So what doesn't make sense is, where did the $4800 difference come from? And why is the 05 camry worth more now; with a smaller motor i might ad?

INteresting.....

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: Big_3_Only
well, unless toyota motor company pays it's assembly line workers more than its CEO, then when you go buy one of those little goofy japanese trucks.....the majority of the profit from the sale of that tin can goes back to TOKYO JAPAN!!!

You fellas need to face facts and stop talking about WHERE a vehicle was ASSEMBLED. I would love for every single part in my General Motors vehicles to be AMERICAN MADE. I'd love for every single car made by the BIG 3 to be ASSEMBLED in the USA. But they aren't. So I will take buying an AMERICAN vehicle that was ASSEMBLED in Mexico or Canada over buying some japanese vehicle that was ASSEMBLED in San Antonio. A tundra is a JAPANESE VEHICLE. Regardless of where it was ASSEMBLED. Sidenote: it's also ugly as sin.

The world isn't perfect, but you people trying to blurr the lines between what is AMERICAN and what is japanese need to realize that there is a reason toyota, honda, nissan, etc...will not move their headquarters to the United States. It's because they're JAPANESE. They love their country. They want those companies to be a part of the japanese economy and they want to support the japanese economy with their profits.

GM, Ford, and Chrysler are AMERICAN companies. They're headquartered in the USA. When you buy one of those awesome Ford, Chevy, or Dodge trucks....where do you think the bulk of that 40k you just dropped goes? To the guy who screwed it together? Heck no, it goes up to the Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoneer section of the company. That's great. I like those guys.

The money also goes to pay the retired GM, Ford, and Chrysler workers insurance, etc...Some of those guys spent 40-50 years working at those companies and living in this country...supporting this country.

You guys make this a tired argument. There is a difference between foreign and domestic. I don't give a turkey where you were born, what color you are, or what your ancestors look like. Toyota is japanese. General Motors is AMERICAN. If you want to buy one if those goofy tundra things and look like a jerk driving down the road....then take off there good buddy. But I think you should of bought an AMERICAN truck. and I'll keep trying educate goofballs everywhere about the fact that buying American is the way to go....


As they say.....opinions are like azzholes, we all have them and they all stink.

I guess if you want to continue giving your hard earned money to a bankrupt company, they go right ahead. More power to you.

Good luck!

 

[3Toyotas]

Originally Posted By: Big_3_Only
Real Americans buy American cars...infamatory?? Chest thumping?? Whatever...

I've never said buying japanese (or german) makes one unpatriotic. I do however believe that making a concerted effort to buy American products, is a patriotic thing to do.

While I think everyone should drive whatever they want, I can't stand people basing those decisions on information that is false. Things like American cars are inferior in quality, if you want a fuel efficent car you have to buy a foreign one, if you want a car that lasts a long time you have to buy foreign. I hear those kinds of ignorant statements all the time. toyota has done it's best to perpetuate those ideas. They are false.

toyota has copied many American car designs for the vehicles they have now. They copied the F150 when they designed the tundra. The Tahoe/Suburban when they did the sequoia. And now since GM is coming out with the Volt, all of a sudden toyota is going to have a plug in hybrid by 2010. That's not innovation, that's copying other people's ingenuity.

The japanese and germans make a good car. But they're not superior to American cars. I've owned all of them and just like the Cadillac I just bought my wife. It's better in every respect than the 5 series BMW we had. Americans, for a very long time, have automatically attached a certain amount of sophistication to anything from europe. A label that many times is wrongly attached.

This has gotten far from the original topic which was toyota's resale value has dropped. I think there are many reasons it's fallen off and like I originally said I think it's mainly due to the economy being off. My sidenote was that toyotas are not all they're cracked up to be.

GM and Ford are doing quite well in the hybrid/alternative fuel areas. Ford's fusion hybrid is kicking the camry hybrid's tail. The Chevrolet Volt is going to change the entire market. toyota has already been trashing GM's technology that they're using in the Volt, because it's a serious threat to their prius. It's a threat because it's BETTER. you'd think with how environmentally friendly toyota is, they would want new and better ideas and technology (you know, for the good of the world). but instead, they're trying to discredit GM's use of lithium ion batteries in the Volt, mainly because they have a huge investment in the market of Nickel metal hydride batteries and they don't want to have to change technologies. I don't like toyota as a company.

The Big 3 are vital to this country as we know it. If they didn't make great cars and trucks...I wouldn't support them. But they make the best cars and trucks in the world and as corporations....they're on their way to becoming better.


Is the fusion even in the same class as the camry?

Environmentaly friendly? Who has more ULEV on the market? Who has more 5 star crash test vehicles out there? Who is making the 5 star safety seal standard on most of their vehicles, including trucks? Head and side curtain airbags, traction control, VSC, 4 wheel anti lock brakes, brake force distribution. If im not mistaken, Toyota has the 5 star safety items in their ENTIRE lineup now. Last i heard, it is optional on most GM'S.

So who's stepping up to the plate more as far as safety for it's CUSTOMER'S ( remember customer is #1)?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: 3Toyotas
Originally Posted By: Big_3_Only
Real Americans buy American cars...infamatory?? Chest thumping?? Whatever...

I've never said buying japanese (or german) makes one unpatriotic. I do however believe that making a concerted effort to buy American products, is a patriotic thing to do.

While I think everyone should drive whatever they want, I can't stand people basing those decisions on information that is false. Things like American cars are inferior in quality, if you want a fuel efficent car you have to buy a foreign one, if you want a car that lasts a long time you have to buy foreign. I hear those kinds of ignorant statements all the time. toyota has done it's best to perpetuate those ideas. They are false.

toyota has copied many American car designs for the vehicles they have now. They copied the F150 when they designed the tundra. The Tahoe/Suburban when they did the sequoia. And now since GM is coming out with the Volt, all of a sudden toyota is going to have a plug in hybrid by 2010. That's not innovation, that's copying other people's ingenuity.

The japanese and germans make a good car. But they're not superior to American cars. I've owned all of them and just like the Cadillac I just bought my wife. It's better in every respect than the 5 series BMW we had. Americans, for a very long time, have automatically attached a certain amount of sophistication to anything from europe. A label that many times is wrongly attached.

This has gotten far from the original topic which was toyota's resale value has dropped. I think there are many reasons it's fallen off and like I originally said I think it's mainly due to the economy being off. My sidenote was that toyotas are not all they're cracked up to be.

GM and Ford are doing quite well in the hybrid/alternative fuel areas. Ford's fusion hybrid is kicking the camry hybrid's tail. The Chevrolet Volt is going to change the entire market. toyota has already been trashing GM's technology that they're using in the Volt, because it's a serious threat to their prius. It's a threat because it's BETTER. you'd think with how environmentally friendly toyota is, they would want new and better ideas and technology (you know, for the good of the world). but instead, they're trying to discredit GM's use of lithium ion batteries in the Volt, mainly because they have a huge investment in the market of Nickel metal hydride batteries and they don't want to have to change technologies. I don't like toyota as a company.

The Big 3 are vital to this country as we know it. If they didn't make great cars and trucks...I wouldn't support them. But they make the best cars and trucks in the world and as corporations....they're on their way to becoming better.


Is the fusion even in the same class as the camry?

Environmentaly friendly? Who has more ULEV on the market? Who has more 5 star crash test vehicles out there? Who is making the 5 star safety seal standard on most of their vehicles, including trucks? Head and side curtain airbags, traction control, VSC, 4 wheel anti lock brakes, brake force distribution. If im not mistaken, Toyota has the 5 star safety items in their ENTIRE lineup now. Last i heard, it is optional on most GM'S.

So who's stepping up to the plate more as far as safety for it's CUSTOMER'S ( remember customer is #1)?


The IIHS site shows lots of Toyota vehicles with less than stellar crash test results if you look at years prior to '09. '09 seems to be the first year of standard side airbags, and '08 models without them, like the Corolla for example scored POOR on the side-impact test.

Rear impact head restraint is not to hot as well:

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/head_restraints/headrestraints.aspx?toyota