Toyota 2AR-FE - Which Oil Grade?

[BiggerBreakerBar]

2012 camry se 2.5l here - first 130k on 0w-20. Went thicker 5w-30 last couple OCIs (Valvoline Restore and Protect). 5w-30 might have smoothed out my idle a tiny bit (balance shaft noise common on this engine) ... possibly placebo. Will be sticking with 30 weight, but this engine doesn't really seem to care.

 

[iCurious]

I am unconvinced that increasing oil viscosity (from the OEM recommendation) will make a material impact on the lifespan of your engine. Change intervals are the bigger issue -- do you see grocery getter engines wearing out?

Might as well use the recommended grade and not leave any fuel savings on the table.

If engines doesn't burn oil then I would agree with that notion.

Using thicker oil will give better cushion for the rings and help reduce the oil consumption amount. So, I don't see why not?

 

[The Critic]

If engines doesn't burn oil then I would agree with that notion.

Using thicker oil will give better cushion for the rings and help reduce the oil consumption amount. So, I don't see why not?

Most of the oil consumption issues are from deposit buildup, not wear. This is why piston ring soaks and some of the other cleaning products have a meaningful impact.

 

[Hohn]

0w-20 is fine in my 2017 Camry. You could try 5w-20 in warm weather.

You could, but it would almost always be a downgrade. The 0w oils are better because they have to use better base oils to meet 0w. So run the 0w because you want the better bases, not because you need the superior cranking.

 

[iCurious]

Most of the oil consumption issues are from deposit buildup, not wear. It is why piston ring soaks and some of the other cleaning products have had a meaningful impact.

So low tension piston rings does not benefit from using a thicker viscosity? If not, why do we have all of this talk about thicker oil is better on this forum?

 

[Hohn]

So low tension piston rings does not benefit from using a thicker viscosity? If not, why do we have all of this talk about thicker oil is better on this forum?

It can vary, but in some cases thicker oils will aggravate oil consumption because the scrapers don't have enough tension to scrape the thicker oil. You have to be quite a bit thicker for this to be a factor, and this assumes the rings are pretty much stuck already.

We have discussion about thicker oil being better because it is....right up to the point it isn't.

 

[iCurious]

It can vary, but in some cases thicker oils will aggravate oil consumption because the scrapers don't have enough tension to scrape the thicker oil. You have to be quite a bit thicker for this to be a factor, and this assumes the rings are pretty much stuck already.

We have discussion about thicker oil being better because it is....right up to the point it isn't.

That depends on the application and it doesn't apply to all.

And when I say thicker oil, I meant thick to a certain extent.

 

[supton]

So low tension piston rings does not benefit from using a thicker viscosity? If not, why do we have all of this talk about thicker oil is better on this forum?

Rings are but one part of the mystery. Bearings want some sort of film thickness, and "thicker is better" for keeping parts apart. But for rings, one wants fast oil drain. Problems arise as the oil drain holes plug up from carbon, which then leaves the oil in the ring lands, which then gums those up. I'm not sure if viscosity matters here, as the cylinder walls and piston are hot, very hot, and any oil is going to drain fast. If it can...

Engines have multiple needs and the oil has to tap dance around them. And each engine family can be unique in what kind of song and dance they like. Some will be fine on olive oil, others need to hit certain specs. Many between might benefit from better oils, but to what gain? Many say they want to own "forever" and/or 500k, yet it appear to me that many flip a vehicle long before that. Like when the transmission starts slipping, or some new feature is desired, or wants override needs. Or Bambi leaves its mark.

 

[Japanese]

Have always run 0W-20 in my 2013 Toyota Camry 2.5L 2AR-FE.

I run this engine in my Scion tC with 0W-20 already about 90K miles. The car has total of 170K miles. I have about 1.5 quart oil consumption for 5K miles.

I would run 5W-30 in the summer and 0W-20 in the winter, if the temp where you live drops below 15°F in the winter. If not or rarely, I would stick with 5W-30 oil.

 

[tired]

I would run 5W-30 in the summer and 0W-20 in the winter, if the temp where you live drops below 15°F in the winter.

What's the benefit of a 20 weight oil in the winter when you have an appropriate winter rating? And why 15 degrees exactly? Can you offer any technical reasons?

 

[GW.]

5W is good for around -25f or so. It’s all about pumpability in a pressurized oil system.

When I first started at the dealership in the 80’s we had two choices, 10W-40 and 10W-30. Eventually that changed to 10W-30 and 5W-30 in the 90’s. As you can see we get cold here.

 

[tired]

5W is good for around -25f or so

Agree. I do not see any technical reason to favor a 20 grade over a 30 grade oil in the winter. You should be able to crank a 5W-50 oil up just fine down to about -25F.

 

[Japanese]

What's the benefit of a 20 weight oil in the winter when you have an appropriate winter rating? And why 15 degrees exactly? Can you offer any technical reasons?

The simple answer is - I don't like to use anything at its border line or its extremes with the only reason to keep it from failing. It's something like pepole change their oil when is 15-20% on the OLM, instead of waiting until gets to 0%. It's a preventive measure that helps the engine in the winter.
0W-20 CCS - 6000 at -35°C/-31°F
5W-30 CCS - 6200 at -30°C/-22°F
Oil may have pumpability at those degrees but do we know how it looks like, how goes through the filter, since that's border line for those viscosities. Is the oil is pumpable enough, is the engine wear the same as let's say 20°F warmer?

When oil is too thick, it can also extend the engine’s warm-up time, make it less efficient, and sometimes cause damage to the engine.

https://www.vioc.com/newsletters/march-2023-newsletter/March-2023-1/#:~:text=What%20Does%20Viscosity%20Mean?,fully%20lubricate%20the%20engine's%20parts.

Selecting the Right Oil for Your Vehicle - section

• Opt for thinner oils like 5W20, which flow better during cold starts and help your engine warm up faster.

https://www.autozone.com/diy/motor-oil/viscosity-5w20-vs-5w30-vs-10w30

How I know that - I listen to my engine on start up. If my engines makes less noises with 0W-20 at low temp I prefer it before 5W-30 because I don't push often my car much to rationalize for any thicker oil, but I do cold start engine at least twice a day. In my case many days below 20°C in the winter.

Also, engines with timing chain (like 2AR-FE) may experience timing chain/sprockets wear, if driven with ticker oil, especially in the winter. I've read that long time ago on car forums written by mechanics. And the noise (I'm talking about) the engine makes when too cold is from the cam chain.

 

[Hohn]

That depends on the application and it doesn't apply to all.

And when I say thicker oil, I meant thick to a certain extent.

100% agree.

 

[Hohn]

The simple answer is - I don't like to use anything at its border line or its extremes with the only reason to keep it from failing. It's something like pepole change their oil when is 15-20% on the OLM, instead of waiting until gets to 0%. It's a preventive measure that helps the engine in the winter.
0W-20 CCS - 6000 at -35°C/-31°F
5W-30 CCS - 6200 at -30°C/-22°F
Oil may have pumpability at those degrees but do we know how it looks like, how goes through the filter, since that's border line for those viscosities. Is the oil is pumpable enough, is the engine wear the same as let's say 20°F warmer?


https://www.vioc.com/newsletters/march-2023-newsletter/March-2023-1/#:~:text=What%20Does%20Viscosity%20Mean?,fully%20lubricate%20the%20engine's%20parts.

Selecting the Right Oil for Your Vehicle - section

https://www.autozone.com/diy/motor-oil/viscosity-5w20-vs-5w30-vs-10w30

How I know that - I listen to my engine on start up. If my engines makes less noises with 0W-20 at low temp I prefer it before 5W-30 because I don't push often my car much to rationalize for any thicker oil, but I do cold start engine at least twice a day. In my case many days below 20°C in the winter.

Also, engines with timing chain (like 2AR-FE) may experience timing chain/sprockets wear, if driven with ticker oil, especially in the winter. I've read that long time ago on car forums written by mechanics. And the noise (I'm talking about) the engine makes when too cold is from the cam chain.

Perhaps you can explain the physics of how a thicker oil, when cold, simultaneously increases fuel consumption while also delaying warmup.

If the engine consumes more fuel, where did the energy go?

 

[Japanese]

how a thicker oil, when cold, simultaneously increases fuel consumption...

I never said that. Have you ever heard that engines dissipate more heat in colder wetaher and especially when the coolant temp is at low temp.?
Also you can read more about it here:

Generally speaking, the denser and thicker the oil the more heat it can abosorb, but it takes a longer time to absorb the heat.

A thinner oil, while having a slightly lower heat capacity, actually transfers heat quicker because it moves faster.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/which-transfers-heat-better-thick-or-thin-oil.10413/

Also, fuel consumption is higher at low temp., not because the oil is thicker but because the ECU compensate for the colder air which contains more O2 - hence more fuel is needed to keep the air-fuel ratio safe. How much more - ounces more, quarts, gallons?

Fuel consumption also increases because the engine runs cold for longer periods of time.
I never said thicker oil increase fuel consumption in this case.

 

[Hohn]

I never said that. Have you ever heard that engines dissipate more heat in colder wetaher and especially when the coolant temp is at low temp.?
Also you can read more about it here:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/which-transfers-heat-better-thick-or-thin-oil.10413/

Also, fuel consumption is higher at low temp., not because the oil is thicker but because the ECU compensate for the colder air which has more O2 - hence more fuel is needed. How much more - ounces more, quarts, gallons?

Fuel consumption also increases because the engine runs cold for longer periods of time.
I never said thicker oil increase fuel consumption in this case.

I’m not saying you are claiming thicker oil increases fuel consumption. I’m just pointing out that it is well established fact, and it is especially true at colder temperatures.

And of course, it makes sense. A positive displacement oil pump at a given RPM has more work to do if the fluid it’s pumping is more viscous. Heck, viscosity is a term in the equation defining pump shaft work.


What I’m trying to guide you to is the realization that thicker oils do not slow the warm up of an engine. The sources you have cited are simply wrong. Thicker oils require the engine to do more work and consume more fuel to pump them, shear them and leak them. That’s the entire reason we have thinner oils as part of EPA mandates, and this is far more true at colder temperatures than at warm temps.

Because of the reduced flow and reduced leakage, there is less heat movement as a result of oil circulation.

Does your starter get hotter in winter or in summer? Obviously with much thicker oils the starter has to do a lot more work, draws much more current, and gets much hotter. If the higher workload of pumping thicker oils in winter require more work of the starter and consume more energy (electricity) and therefore generate more heat, why would it not *also* be the case that the engine itself, once started, is also consuming more energy (fuel) and therefore generating more heat because of the additional shaft work?

It turns out, that’s precisely what happens. It’s a basic thermo energy balance problem. More parasitic work dissipates more energy and that energy warms the engine at least as fast if not faster than using a thinner winter grade will.

The problem with the misinformed sources you cited as that they are confusing the rate of heat movement with the total quantity of heat generated. Yes, a thinner oil has higher flow rates and would cause an engine to heat more evenly. But that’s not the same as heating faster and it’s not indicative of the total heat sink to the oil.

Because of the lower parasitic work in a cold engine, lower total rate of shear and the higher circulation rates of a cooling medium, thinner oils, not thicker oils, delay engine warm up.

Not that it’s significant in either case, but I feel it’s important to correct the error repeated in your links.

 

[FZ1]

I’m not saying you are claiming thicker oil increases fuel consumption. I’m just pointing out that it is well established fact, and it is especially true at colder temperatures.

And of course, it makes sense. A positive displacement oil pump at a given RPM has more work to do if the fluid it’s pumping is more viscous. Heck, viscosity is a term in the equation defining pump shaft work.


What I’m trying to guide you to is the realization that thicker oils do not slow the warm up of an engine. The sources you have cited are simply wrong. Thicker oils require the engine to do more work and consume more fuel to pump them, shear them and leak them. That’s the entire reason we have thinner oils as part of EPA mandates, and this is far more true at colder temperatures than at warm temps.

Because of the reduced flow and reduced leakage, there is less heat movement as a result of oil circulation.

Does your starter get hotter in winter or in summer? Obviously with much thicker oils the starter has to do a lot more work, draws much more current, and gets much hotter. If the higher workload of pumping thicker oils in winter require more work of the starter and consume more energy (electricity) and therefore generate more heat, why would it not *also* be the case that the engine itself, once started, is also consuming more energy (fuel) and therefore generating more heat because of the additional shaft work?

It turns out, that’s precisely what happens. It’s a basic thermo energy balance problem. More parasitic work dissipates more energy and that energy warms the engine at least as fast if not faster than using a thinner winter grade will.

The problem with the misinformed sources you cited as that they are confusing the rate of heat movement with the total quantity of heat generated. Yes, a thinner oil has higher flow rates and would cause an engine to heat more evenly. But that’s not the same as heating faster and it’s not indicative of the total heat sink to the oil.

Because of the lower parasitic work in a cold engine, lower total rate of shear and the higher circulation rates of a cooling medium, thinner oils, not thicker oils, delay engine warm up.

Not that it’s significant in either case, but I feel it’s important to correct the error repeated in your links.

I agree with everything you say............ But........ I want my engine to do less work on startup in the winter. That's why I run 0w-20 in my 2.5 Camry.

 

[Japanese]

I think we talk about different things.
I'm talking about which oil absorbs heat quicker. Absorbing is when two objects touch and the heat is transferred from the hotter object (pistons, rods) to the cooler (oil) and vise versa.

This can be easily discovered when you put to pots on the stove at the same heat one full of 0W-20 and the other full with 15W-40 or 20W-50. I'm saying the 0W-20 oil warm up quicker. You can put a third control pot with water.

 

[Japanese]

The problem with the misinformed sources you cited as that they are confusing the rate of heat movement with the total quantity of heat generated.

One of those sources is a fellow BITOG-er @MolaKule who I believe is very knowledgable about oils.

Generally speaking, the denser and thicker the oil the more heat it can abosorb, but it takes a longer time to absorb the heat.

A thinner oil, while having a slightly lower heat capacity, actually transfers heat quicker because it moves faster.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/which-transfers-heat-better-thick-or-thin-oil.10413/