Started at 9 this morning and finished by around 3 with a break for lunch. Got a chance to try out my new Husky Impact Wrench which worked nicely! The timing chain cover on the 2002 Taurus 3L Vulcan engine houses the water pump and is notorious for leaking. My son's car had been progressively getting worse to where he carried a gallon of water to add each time he drove it. The gasket kit only cost $15 but the time to remove everything on the front of the engine including the front pulley took some time. We changed the water pump while we were at it since it was OEM with 140k miles on it. Overall not an overly technical job but a lot of time. Seems water tight now so all is well! Did an oil change as well to get any junk out we may have dropped in. Wonder what a job like this would cost at a shop?
Took on the Taurus Timing Chain Cover
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It pays 5.6 hrs so figure about $700-750 with pump and gasket.
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
Scout1, finishing a job like that has to make you feel good.
I had the same leak on my 2002 Ford Ranger.
I tried to do the repair myself but did not have the experience and tools.
I ended up having the leak fixed 'twice' over the years.
Question: On a job like this, what's the best sealant to put on the Water Pump GASKET ?
The last Indy Mechanic said he used Permatex Ultra Black / or Gray.
I believe this leak is caused by the different expansion/contraction rates of Steel and aluminum.
I had the same leak on my 2002 Ford Ranger.
I tried to do the repair myself but did not have the experience and tools.
I ended up having the leak fixed 'twice' over the years.
Question: On a job like this, what's the best sealant to put on the Water Pump GASKET ?
The last Indy Mechanic said he used Permatex Ultra Black / or Gray.
I believe this leak is caused by the different expansion/contraction rates of Steel and aluminum.
I have done this job. Did you use RTV black on the water passages to make it a permanent repair?
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
people here tell me to go go a warm place over our $90/hr.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
people here tell me to go go a warm place over our $90/hr.
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
I have done this job. Did you use RTV black on the water passages to make it a permanent repair?
I thought about that. This gasket was "improved" and more than just paper. Not sure what it was made out of but it felt like some sort of polymer. I had heard if you use RTV sometimes it splits the gasket so I was shy of that. I know it's old school, but I circled the water outlets with Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket. Nice and soft so it should not harm the gasket but a little extra insurance around the water holes.
I have done this job. Did you use RTV black on the water passages to make it a permanent repair?
I thought about that. This gasket was "improved" and more than just paper. Not sure what it was made out of but it felt like some sort of polymer. I had heard if you use RTV sometimes it splits the gasket so I was shy of that. I know it's old school, but I circled the water outlets with Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket. Nice and soft so it should not harm the gasket but a little extra insurance around the water holes.
Originally Posted By: larryinnewyork
Scout1, finishing a job like that has to make you feel good.
I had the same leak on my 2002 Ford Ranger.
I tried to do the repair myself but did not have the experience and tools.
I ended up having the leak fixed 'twice' over the years.
Question: On a job like this, what's the best sealant to put on the Water Pump GASKET ?
The last Indy Mechanic said he used Permatex Ultra Black / or Gray.
I believe this leak is caused by the different expansion/contraction rates of Steel and aluminum.
I had the benefit of a great on-line video at FordTechMakuloco. Really thorough video showing the whole process. To be honest when I first saw where the leak was coming from, my first assumption was you had to pull the engine to get that deep in!
I used Permatex form-a-gasket around the two water holes to ensure a good seal. Particularly since we didn't buy a new aluminium timing chain cover and after cleaning the gasket surface, who knows if the metal surface was still true.
My son plans to keep this car for another year or so and this is the first time we've done this repair, so hopefully never again! Sure have been a lot of other cooling system problems on this Taurus though. Lots of rusty grime even though we've change the antifreeze multiple times. Plus we had to replace a plugged heater core earlier. And on top of that, the plastic surge tank cracked and was an easy replacement, but sheesh, really Ford?
Scout1, finishing a job like that has to make you feel good.
I had the same leak on my 2002 Ford Ranger.
I tried to do the repair myself but did not have the experience and tools.
I ended up having the leak fixed 'twice' over the years.
Question: On a job like this, what's the best sealant to put on the Water Pump GASKET ?
The last Indy Mechanic said he used Permatex Ultra Black / or Gray.
I believe this leak is caused by the different expansion/contraction rates of Steel and aluminum.
I had the benefit of a great on-line video at FordTechMakuloco. Really thorough video showing the whole process. To be honest when I first saw where the leak was coming from, my first assumption was you had to pull the engine to get that deep in!
I used Permatex form-a-gasket around the two water holes to ensure a good seal. Particularly since we didn't buy a new aluminium timing chain cover and after cleaning the gasket surface, who knows if the metal surface was still true.
My son plans to keep this car for another year or so and this is the first time we've done this repair, so hopefully never again! Sure have been a lot of other cooling system problems on this Taurus though. Lots of rusty grime even though we've change the antifreeze multiple times. Plus we had to replace a plugged heater core earlier. And on top of that, the plastic surge tank cracked and was an easy replacement, but sheesh, really Ford?
Originally Posted By: larryinnewyork
Scout1,
Question: On a job like this, what's the best sealant to put on the Water Pump GASKET ?
The last Indy Mechanic said he used Permatex Ultra Black / or Gray.
I believe this leak is caused by the different expansion/contraction rates of Steel and aluminum.
Sorry, I misread your question, I didn't use any extra sealant on the water pump gasket which bolts the aluminium water pump into the aluminium timing chain cover. Where we had leakage was between the timing chain cover and the block. And you're right, that is an aluminium to iron joint so you're probably right, it must move some with the heating and cooling of the engine and probably why these leaks are common. I read that the rear joint is the most common point of leakage and that indeed was where we were losing coolant.
When I first saw the leak I tried a couple of times to re-torque the bolts and that helped some but eventually I think the gasket finally just blew through. Ha ha, we actually tried a poor man's fix by running epoxy over the seam of the timing chain to the block and I had him running with the radiator cap loose to avoid pressure. That too worked for a few weeks. But we found out the Taurus doesn't like to be run with a loose cap as it kept blowing the coolant out the top... needs to be pressurized to raise the boiling point. Plus as he started using straight water instead of antifreeze the boiling point was lower which made the boil over problem even worse. So yeah, we tried to avoid this nasty job but now that it's done, it feels good!
Scout1,
Question: On a job like this, what's the best sealant to put on the Water Pump GASKET ?
The last Indy Mechanic said he used Permatex Ultra Black / or Gray.
I believe this leak is caused by the different expansion/contraction rates of Steel and aluminum.
Sorry, I misread your question, I didn't use any extra sealant on the water pump gasket which bolts the aluminium water pump into the aluminium timing chain cover. Where we had leakage was between the timing chain cover and the block. And you're right, that is an aluminium to iron joint so you're probably right, it must move some with the heating and cooling of the engine and probably why these leaks are common. I read that the rear joint is the most common point of leakage and that indeed was where we were losing coolant.
When I first saw the leak I tried a couple of times to re-torque the bolts and that helped some but eventually I think the gasket finally just blew through. Ha ha, we actually tried a poor man's fix by running epoxy over the seam of the timing chain to the block and I had him running with the radiator cap loose to avoid pressure. That too worked for a few weeks. But we found out the Taurus doesn't like to be run with a loose cap as it kept blowing the coolant out the top... needs to be pressurized to raise the boiling point. Plus as he started using straight water instead of antifreeze the boiling point was lower which made the boil over problem even worse. So yeah, we tried to avoid this nasty job but now that it's done, it feels good!
Originally Posted By: Scout1
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
I have done this job. Did you use RTV black on the water passages to make it a permanent repair?
I thought about that. This gasket was "improved" and more than just paper. Not sure what it was made out of but it felt like some sort of polymer. I had heard if you use RTV sometimes it splits the gasket so I was shy of that. I know it's old school, but I circled the water outlets with Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket. Nice and soft so it should not harm the gasket but a little extra insurance around the water holes.
The form a gasket will work okay but next time on jobs like this use Hylomar M, you wont be sorry. It will never leak and will not damage any gasket. I hate RTV with a passion and only use it when its absolute must e.g. big gap filling when spec'd. This is just to show what it is, you can grab it much cheaper on ebay than retail stores or Amazon.
http://hylomar.com/hylomar-product-range/gasket-jointing-compounds/#hylomarm
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar_M_Catalogue.pdf
Edit: Added link.
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
I have done this job. Did you use RTV black on the water passages to make it a permanent repair?
I thought about that. This gasket was "improved" and more than just paper. Not sure what it was made out of but it felt like some sort of polymer. I had heard if you use RTV sometimes it splits the gasket so I was shy of that. I know it's old school, but I circled the water outlets with Permatex Aviation Form-a-Gasket. Nice and soft so it should not harm the gasket but a little extra insurance around the water holes.
The form a gasket will work okay but next time on jobs like this use Hylomar M, you wont be sorry. It will never leak and will not damage any gasket. I hate RTV with a passion and only use it when its absolute must e.g. big gap filling when spec'd. This is just to show what it is, you can grab it much cheaper on ebay than retail stores or Amazon.
http://hylomar.com/hylomar-product-range/gasket-jointing-compounds/#hylomarm
http://hylomar.com/warrick/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hylomar_M_Catalogue.pdf
Edit: Added link.
Last edited:
Nice job! It always feels good to save money and get the job done.
Thanks Trav, looks like something I should have in my toolbox! I've never seen this stuff anywhere, what's it made of? Seems like 90% of the gasket products now-a-days are some form of silicon/RTV.
Its a very well known product in Europe and widely used in the industry but it hasn't trickled down much into the DIY consumer market. It is a polyester urethane based gel like material that has a soft set. You can use it on coolant hoses for an easy to remove but permanent seal without having to tighten worm clamps so tight the hose starts coming through the clamp slits if using worm clamps, just tighten the clamp firmly that's enough.
It removes easily and parts can be realigned without loosing the seal. Once I started using this product I never looked back at form a gasket and RTV, it surpasses them in every way.
It removes easily and parts can be realigned without loosing the seal. Once I started using this product I never looked back at form a gasket and RTV, it surpasses them in every way.
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
people here tell me to go go a warm place over our $90/hr.
We have to pay all of our techs a minimum of $21/hr and 8 hours a day regardless of what they flag due to the clarification of the labor law recently. Since they have to supply their own tools they have to make a minimum of double the minimum wage and must be paid as long as they are clocked in.
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
people here tell me to go go a warm place over our $90/hr.
We have to pay all of our techs a minimum of $21/hr and 8 hours a day regardless of what they flag due to the clarification of the labor law recently. Since they have to supply their own tools they have to make a minimum of double the minimum wage and must be paid as long as they are clocked in.
+1
Hylomar is my go-to gasket surface prep for iffy situations. AFAIK it's the same as old school RR Gasket sealer that was always the deal in the old days. I use spray-on Hylomar most of the time when needed ...
Hylomar is my go-to gasket surface prep for iffy situations. AFAIK it's the same as old school RR Gasket sealer that was always the deal in the old days. I use spray-on Hylomar most of the time when needed ...
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
people here tell me to go go a warm place over our $90/hr.
We have to pay all of our techs a minimum of $21/hr and 8 hours a day regardless of what they flag due to the clarification of the labor law recently. Since they have to supply their own tools they have to make a minimum of double the minimum wage and must be paid as long as they are clocked in.
People either forget or don't understand the cost of running a service dept. That's $21/hr + workman's comp, SS, and medical. The electric bill for a service dept boggles the mind to speak nothing of the taxes, insurance, equipment, building maintenance, etc.
It doesn't take much of a work slowdown to drive it into the red in short order. A winter storm that dramatically slows it down for 2 days can really hit hard.
Parts departments as I remember them always ran as a separate entity within the service department is that true today?
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
So is the water pump behind the timing chain cover ?
The water pump bolts to the timing cover like on a Windsor motor. Some of the bolts connect the pump to the cover and some go through both into the block.
So at 5.6 hours the labor alone would have been $784 at my work plus the parts.
people here tell me to go go a warm place over our $90/hr.
We have to pay all of our techs a minimum of $21/hr and 8 hours a day regardless of what they flag due to the clarification of the labor law recently. Since they have to supply their own tools they have to make a minimum of double the minimum wage and must be paid as long as they are clocked in.
People either forget or don't understand the cost of running a service dept. That's $21/hr + workman's comp, SS, and medical. The electric bill for a service dept boggles the mind to speak nothing of the taxes, insurance, equipment, building maintenance, etc.
It doesn't take much of a work slowdown to drive it into the red in short order. A winter storm that dramatically slows it down for 2 days can really hit hard.
Parts departments as I remember them always ran as a separate entity within the service department is that true today?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Parts departments as I remember them always ran as a separate entity within the service department is that true today?
Pretty much. We are not a part of the service department, but fall under the "fixed ops" side of the business. We actually are the most profitable department in all 7 of our owner's stores. We don't do the parts profit transfer to service like a lot of dealers do.
Parts departments as I remember them always ran as a separate entity within the service department is that true today?
Pretty much. We are not a part of the service department, but fall under the "fixed ops" side of the business. We actually are the most profitable department in all 7 of our owner's stores. We don't do the parts profit transfer to service like a lot of dealers do.
Do you markup the service and used car dept?
Originally Posted By: Trav
Do you markup the service and used car dept?
Parts billed on ROs do not get a discount unless it is a fleet account or customer service issue and internally sold parts are at cost +40%.
Do you markup the service and used car dept?
Parts billed on ROs do not get a discount unless it is a fleet account or customer service issue and internally sold parts are at cost +40%.
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