To all dealer personnel with a wrench

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Really, to one Honda dealer where I got my CPO Pilot last July:

Why in the world do you tighten the fill/drain bolts on ALL fill/drain parts in the car to 10,000ft/lbs?


You cost me more than an hour today, and I STILL can't get the fill bolt off the 2008 Pilot's transmission, even with a breaker bar and my feet on the bumper.
 
Because they don't want you working on it?
Check your wheels, too. I bet you couldn't change a flat now after they rotated the tires.

Seriously, there is a torque spec on that stuff, you should make them redo them for free.
 
Eh, it's a long time away from them certifying the car to when I got it, and it's 5 hours away. I told my wife that exact same thing, they don't want me working on it so they can expect me back. Ain't happening minus a recall.

I'll have my indy mechanic loosen it for me for free and then I'll be on my way with the drain/fill.
 
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From what I have experienced is that when you crack the plugs for the first time on Hondas it takes a lot of force. Maybe this was the first time these plugs have ever been opened, ie. not serviced before even though it is a CPO because dealers sometimes do that.

For the upper transmission fill bolt we use a heavy duty 17 socket, 1/2" drive ratchet with an 18 inch extension and a breaker bar. For the differential you can use a ratchet(or allen key?) with a pipe for leverage.

If you are using a 3/8" ratchet you dont stand a chance.
 
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Originally Posted By: silverrat
From what I have experienced is that when you crack the plugs for the first time on Hondas it takes a lot of force. Maybe this was the first time these plugs have ever been opened, ie. not serviced before even though it is a CPO because dealers sometimes do that.

For the upper transmission fill bolt we use a heavy duty 17 socket, 1/2" drive ratchet with an 18 inch extension and a breaker bar. For the differential you can use a ratchet(or allen key?) with a pipe for leverage.

If you are using a 3/8" ratchet you dont stand a chance.


Well, paperwork "says" they changed all driveline fluids at 28k but I never believed them so that's why I wanted to do it at 38k. I used a hammer on the fill/drain bolts for the VTM-4 and got that squared away after 1/2 hour.
Then I changed the oil which I've done once before.
Then I tried with said breaker bar and a 17mm socket. I was a dentist with my feet on your shoulders trying to remove your wisdom teeth with that stupid plug. No dice. I had 8" of deflection on it and it still didn't move.
 
I broke a HF impact socket trying to get the oil drain plug off one daughters car (never did get it off). And I bent a combo wrench on the other daughters car doing the same thing. I hit the wrench with a sledge hammer. If there is a good washer in there, then no need to super tighten it.
 
I only use the soft aluminum washers so I know it wasn't someone like me who cared about the car that tightened it down.
Air wrenches are for shocks, not fill bolts!
 
I'm not sure why, but it seems that people are completely oblivious to torque specs, what they should be for each part and what that torque should feel like if using a wrench vice torque wrench. Why people think they need 100+ ft-lbs for a drain plug, 50+ ft-lbs for oil filters and anything other than snug for covers and non-load-bearing parts is beyond me.

I called up the tire change place where my gf recently had her tires replaced to give them a piece of my mind. I went to replace her brakes in her driveway, thinking it would be an easy job, and I could not, with all my weight on the crowbar - I forgot my tools and jack at my place, so I had to use what came with the car, unfortunately - get ANY of the lugs to budge.

When I called the salesman to ask why they torqued the lugs so tightly he was nonplussed, say that they use a "torque stick" for every vehicle. I told him how I thought he was full of [censored] (in nicer terms, mind you,) and that my gf would have been stuck on the side of the road with a flat, forced to tow the car, even if a good samaritan who worked out 7 days/week happened to stop to help. He didn't know what to say, other than to bring it in and have them check it out.

I showed up an hour later to have them re-torque the lugs to spec (and replace two studs that were barely engaging the random nuts they'd decided to use vice lug nuts, since the studs were sheared off several threads down.) Walking from the parking lot and past the bays on the way to their office I noticed two different cars having their lugs tightened with 5+ seconds of impact-wrench goodness.

To their credit, they replaced the lug studs, free of charge, and retorqued the lugs so that I was able to easily remove the wheels the following day to replace her brake pads.

I'm glad that when I replaced her plugs after 120k, it was an easy job. The reason? They were probably never replaced before, so the plugs, while very tight, came out as expected, with out any cross-threading nor any excessive torque needed to remove them.
 
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Originally Posted By: Chris Meutsch

Well, paperwork "says" they changed all driveline fluids at 28k but I never believed them so that's why I wanted to do it at 38k. I used a hammer on the fill/drain bolts for the VTM-4 and got that squared away after 1/2 hour.
Then I changed the oil which I've done once before.
Then I tried with said breaker bar and a 17mm socket. I was a dentist with my feet on your shoulders trying to remove your wisdom teeth with that stupid plug. No dice. I had 8" of deflection on it and it still didn't move.


How long was your breaker bar? I use the 25" long ones or I attach a 18" section of PVC pipe onto my ratchet and I have never had any problems, and I have serviced a lot of Honda automatics.

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
they dont know any better the stealership is NOT the place for an oil change ONLY warranty service,Period!


Thanks for your unfair generalization of all dealers. While you may have had nothing but poor experiences, this may not be true for everyone.
 
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
I'm not sure why, but it seems that people are completely oblivious to torque specs, what they should be for each part and what that torque should feel like if using a wrench vice torque wrench. Why people think they need 100+ ft-lbs for a drain plug, 50+ ft-lbs for oil filters and anything other than snug for covers and non-load-bearing parts is beyond me.


I think it is because some of us are oblivious to "correct tightness" due to using ratchets that are way longer than needed. For instance, I am guilty of using my 11" Snap-On 3/8" ratchet on most bolts that I tighten. I forget that a ratchet of that length, is capable of tightening a plug to well over 50 ft lbs.

Also, the aluminum crush washers on those Hondas are very soft. So when you install a new aluminum washer upon reinstalling the drain plug, it is easy to keep tightening the plug to well beyond the tightness that you are supposed to.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: Chris Meutsch

Well, paperwork "says" they changed all driveline fluids at 28k but I never believed them so that's why I wanted to do it at 38k. I used a hammer on the fill/drain bolts for the VTM-4 and got that squared away after 1/2 hour.
Then I changed the oil which I've done once before.
Then I tried with said breaker bar and a 17mm socket. I was a dentist with my feet on your shoulders trying to remove your wisdom teeth with that stupid plug. No dice. I had 8" of deflection on it and it still didn't move.


How long was your breaker bar? I use the 25" long ones or I attach a 18" section of PVC pipe onto my ratchet and I have never had any problems, and I have serviced a lot of Honda automatics.

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
they dont know any better the stealership is NOT the place for an oil change ONLY warranty service,Period!


Thanks for your unfair generalization of all dealers. While you may have had nothing but poor experiences, this may not be true for everyone.


18" and it says right on there not to use any pipe to extend it. Whether I would hurt myself or not, no idea.
I also agree on the dealership statement above; they're not all bad.
 
Originally Posted By: crinkles
Did you double check righty-tighty and lefty-loosey?

I've had my moments.


I thought of that as I've made that mistake before on brakes.

Breaker bar at 9 oclock, pulling down to 6 oclock as hard as I could.
 
Shops love to over torque stuff so you need to come back.
I look long and hard for an honest mechanic,for when I need a big job or special tools.
The dealer is not a place to have your car serviced.
 
I like how everyone mentions finding an honest mechanic, presumably this refers to an independent. Unfortunately, most independent mechanics do not see enough of any specific make/models to be good at quick troubleshooting. Nor do they have access to the dealership exclusive technical help lines, latest factory service bulletins, factory scan tools or the manufacturer specific training. As time goes on, we are going to be more and more reliant on dealerships for repair work since they will have the expertise. Your good 'ol independent mechanic is going to become to no better than your experienced DIY'er, IMO-- missing the crucial diagnostic tools, familiarity and knowledge to complete the job correctly, the first time.
 
It's hard to find an honest mechanic..but they are out there.
I found a guy by having him press out some bearings once..charged me $20 when everyone else wouldn't take the time.
He always had his lot full of cars.
went back quite a few times for large job that needed special tools.
Always got a fair price and didn't upsell me anything.
YMMV.
 
Originally Posted By: SkyGod
It's hard to find an honest mechanic..but they are out there.
I found a guy by having him press out some bearings once..charged me $20 when everyone else wouldn't take the time.
He always had his lot full of cars.
went back quite a few times for large job that needed special tools.
Always got a fair price and didn't upsell me anything.
YMMV.


I think you missed the point of what I said. Your mechanic may be honest, but this doesn't mean he will know what he is doing.
 
Originally Posted By: The Critic
I think you missed the point of what I said. Your mechanic may be honest, but this doesn't mean he will know what he is doing.

That's a pretty arrogant statement. An honest mechanic with enough work will turn away work he can't do, or try then stop at the "stumper" (without charging you) and know someone in his network of buddies he can refer you to.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino

That's a pretty arrogant statement. An honest mechanic with enough work will turn away work he can't do, or try then stop at the "stumper" (without charging you) and know someone in his network of buddies he can refer you to.

Sorry to sound arrogant, but it often the unfortunate truth. I guess it must vary by area, but most of the truly "independent" shops around here barely have enough work to stay in business. They jump on every bit of business they can get, and often do the work because they believe they have the expertise to handle it, when in fact they do not. This is most apparent with jobs that require the use of OE level scan tools, and sometimes this is beginning to affect simple jobs such as alignments.
 
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