Tired of hearing of how the U.S. makes only garbage cars!
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robbobster
What gets me is there are so many people (like in the edmunds.com forums) who swear up and down the Koreans are building vehicles on the same level as the Japanese in terms of build quality when they haven't yet even proven they can build them on the same level as the domestic companies. It took the Japanese 20 years to attain the rep they currently have, but some people are convinced the Koreans are already there. I'm afraid they're going to have to PROVE to me over the long term they're able to build ultra-reliable vehicles before I put them in the same catagory as the Japanese.
What gets me is there are so many people (like in the edmunds.com forums) who swear up and down the Koreans are building vehicles on the same level as the Japanese in terms of build quality when they haven't yet even proven they can build them on the same level as the domestic companies. It took the Japanese 20 years to attain the rep they currently have, but some people are convinced the Koreans are already there. I'm afraid they're going to have to PROVE to me over the long term they're able to build ultra-reliable vehicles before I put them in the same catagory as the Japanese.
bottgers,
I hear ya.
While Korean Initial Quality scores are pretty good, their Long Term Durability scores are still not so hot.
We'll have to see if the new generation of vehicles has the long-term durability that the previous-generation cars lacked.
I think it will take a couple of generations of good, quality vehicles to change the public's perceptions. Consumers these days are more educated than ever before, and won't be easily fooled by anything less than stellar quality, given the past reputation of Korean cars.
I hear ya.
While Korean Initial Quality scores are pretty good, their Long Term Durability scores are still not so hot.
We'll have to see if the new generation of vehicles has the long-term durability that the previous-generation cars lacked.
I think it will take a couple of generations of good, quality vehicles to change the public's perceptions. Consumers these days are more educated than ever before, and won't be easily fooled by anything less than stellar quality, given the past reputation of Korean cars.
It seems that American cars have become decently reliable, an area where the Japanese were able to invade with their strong quality a few decades back. But the designs are SO boring on the passenger cars, they still just appear to be your run of the mill rental car.
I will admit the new Vette looks pretty snazzy but the interior quality is still poor...hard plastics in the center console, cheap feeling leather and they still don't even throw in auto up windows, just auto down. Those little things such as the auto up windows, US automakers are so slow on, for instance the new Vette just got the windows to lower and raise when you open the door for the new design. My `93 325is has that!! I won't even start on the fact they use leaf springs in the front/rear supension still.
IMO if US automakers want to compete with euro/japanese they can't be using technology that came out a decade earlier, they have to jump in front of the competitors. I was looking at a Cobalt sitting next to me at the light today, you can see the rear bumper where it just cuts off at the bottom, no smooth tucking in or anything, just looks like a typical rental car still. It's beyond me why Ford released the new 500 with an old engine...nearly every magazine that reviewed the car made that a point to say it's underpowered etc. Great start Ford when your trying to work up the ladder. At least they used a decent chassis (Volvo) Maybe their will be a day when an US automaker will have a car that has the driving dynamics, style and technology of a euro car and stay decently reliable. Anyone who supports US cars and hates hearing them getting bashed, well when someone builds an inferior product that's what will happen. That's why we see GM/Ford loosing large amounts of money everyday.
I will admit the new Vette looks pretty snazzy but the interior quality is still poor...hard plastics in the center console, cheap feeling leather and they still don't even throw in auto up windows, just auto down. Those little things such as the auto up windows, US automakers are so slow on, for instance the new Vette just got the windows to lower and raise when you open the door for the new design. My `93 325is has that!! I won't even start on the fact they use leaf springs in the front/rear supension still.
IMO if US automakers want to compete with euro/japanese they can't be using technology that came out a decade earlier, they have to jump in front of the competitors. I was looking at a Cobalt sitting next to me at the light today, you can see the rear bumper where it just cuts off at the bottom, no smooth tucking in or anything, just looks like a typical rental car still. It's beyond me why Ford released the new 500 with an old engine...nearly every magazine that reviewed the car made that a point to say it's underpowered etc. Great start Ford when your trying to work up the ladder. At least they used a decent chassis (Volvo) Maybe their will be a day when an US automaker will have a car that has the driving dynamics, style and technology of a euro car and stay decently reliable. Anyone who supports US cars and hates hearing them getting bashed, well when someone builds an inferior product that's what will happen. That's why we see GM/Ford loosing large amounts of money everyday.
Are you kidding me? Magazines will tell you the smallest flaw on Korean cars. They give Korean cars a tough time, when there actually good cars.
Hmmmmmm -- the QX isn't the only Infiniti that infinitely stinks.
Here's another datapoint to consider: since 1978, I've owned about 15 cars, give or take, including my wife's handful. My 18 month old 2004, Made in Japan, Infiniti G35 Sedanis the biggest PIECE OF {you fill it in...} I've ever owned. The only thing worse than the car is dealing with the "nice people" at Infiniti who are so seduced by their own "we build great cars" propaganda that they refuse to deal with obvious problems with the car. Oh yeah, the car felt OK for about the first six months, but it's been in a nose-dive since. I watch the rearview more often now -- to check for stray parts left behind. . .
Just a sampling of the fun things with which I've been dealing:
- Progressively worsening timing chain rattle on start (don't worry -- it's normal. No, sometimes it's downright scary -- like engine parts are about to start flying in different directions).
- Leaking hose between radiator and overflow tank. (We pressure checked it, and it's OK. I guess Scotty keeps beaming coolant down to the outside of my hoses so that I have to keep cleaning off the residue, which they admit IS coolant. Since we cant find the source -- no problem, be happy. I'm not.).
- Air bubbles in the heater circuit, causing a nearly constant "gurgling" sound behind the dash, in sync with RPM -- really nice in an RPM biased car. (They cured it once, but brought it back the last time they checked the radiator and decided it needed some coolant removed).
- Incurable "creaking" of suspension in turns. Actually, they cured it once by -- duh -- lubricating the sway bar bushings, but now they've decided they can't cure it again -- NORMAL now. What a load of. . .
- Accessory drive belts (two of them) that wore out in just over a year, and still well within warranty. (I pay 'cause that's a "wear" item. I never had a belts wear out that fast on a domestic...).
- Driver's seat makes clearly audible "clunk" sound in right turns. Feels as if there's about 1-2 mm of slack somewhere in the tracks. (Too bad, we looked, everything's in spec, so we're not doing anything about it). Nevermind "luxury car feel" -- this thing feels like the old Dodge Aries I once owned in a less prosperous time. Yecch!!!
- Heavy metal-on-metal sound in trunk. (We found it and fixed it. Guess what -- they didn't).
- A dozen or so more, but you get the idea.
- Oh yeah, don't even bother with their "Customer Satisfaction" losers -- they're completely, uselessly unhelpful.
Now, one bad car is not the basis for any global conclusions about American vs. The Rest of the World, but I can tell you one thing: I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER NISSAN/INFINITI PRODUCT AGAIN AS LONG AS I LIVE, and I will BAD MOUTH their products to anyone I can convince to listen.
I sincerely hope that you all-American domestic guys enjoyed this.
Here's another datapoint to consider: since 1978, I've owned about 15 cars, give or take, including my wife's handful. My 18 month old 2004, Made in Japan, Infiniti G35 Sedanis the biggest PIECE OF {you fill it in...} I've ever owned. The only thing worse than the car is dealing with the "nice people" at Infiniti who are so seduced by their own "we build great cars" propaganda that they refuse to deal with obvious problems with the car. Oh yeah, the car felt OK for about the first six months, but it's been in a nose-dive since. I watch the rearview more often now -- to check for stray parts left behind. . .
Just a sampling of the fun things with which I've been dealing:
- Progressively worsening timing chain rattle on start (don't worry -- it's normal. No, sometimes it's downright scary -- like engine parts are about to start flying in different directions).
- Leaking hose between radiator and overflow tank. (We pressure checked it, and it's OK. I guess Scotty keeps beaming coolant down to the outside of my hoses so that I have to keep cleaning off the residue, which they admit IS coolant. Since we cant find the source -- no problem, be happy. I'm not.).
- Air bubbles in the heater circuit, causing a nearly constant "gurgling" sound behind the dash, in sync with RPM -- really nice in an RPM biased car. (They cured it once, but brought it back the last time they checked the radiator and decided it needed some coolant removed).
- Incurable "creaking" of suspension in turns. Actually, they cured it once by -- duh -- lubricating the sway bar bushings, but now they've decided they can't cure it again -- NORMAL now. What a load of. . .
- Accessory drive belts (two of them) that wore out in just over a year, and still well within warranty. (I pay 'cause that's a "wear" item. I never had a belts wear out that fast on a domestic...).
- Driver's seat makes clearly audible "clunk" sound in right turns. Feels as if there's about 1-2 mm of slack somewhere in the tracks. (Too bad, we looked, everything's in spec, so we're not doing anything about it). Nevermind "luxury car feel" -- this thing feels like the old Dodge Aries I once owned in a less prosperous time. Yecch!!!
- Heavy metal-on-metal sound in trunk. (We found it and fixed it. Guess what -- they didn't).
- A dozen or so more, but you get the idea.
- Oh yeah, don't even bother with their "Customer Satisfaction" losers -- they're completely, uselessly unhelpful.
Now, one bad car is not the basis for any global conclusions about American vs. The Rest of the World, but I can tell you one thing: I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER NISSAN/INFINITI PRODUCT AGAIN AS LONG AS I LIVE, and I will BAD MOUTH their products to anyone I can convince to listen.
I sincerely hope that you all-American domestic guys enjoyed this.
ekpolk,
I hope you aren't wasting your stash of GC on that junk pile.
I hope you aren't wasting your stash of GC on that junk pile.
Actually, I had been. At the moment, it's got a fill of Mobil Clean 5k -- for an Auto-Rx rinse phase. I thought I'd try a treatment to see if it helped the timing chain rattle (supposedly a result of low oil flow through small openings on start, thought they might have gotten cruddy). Well, the rattle is still there, though about 500 miles after adding the ARX, my highway mileage improved by about 2 mpg avg (about the only happy thing that's happened with this car in the last ~12 months. . .
If the car's still around after the rinse, it will regrettably get the good stuff. Of course, my wife has started rumbling about no longer needing all the space in her big, four-year-old Sequoia. I, in turn, have started scheming to trade not the Sequoia, but my G instead. That "Tree" is an infinitely better vehicle than my G will ever be, and I'd gladly give up the "performance" for this hand-me-down. And even with its greater thirst, offset by its acceptance of 87 vs premium, the Seq will cost less than ten bucks more per week to feed.
Hmmmmmmmm -- the G may not get any more of the green. . .
If the car's still around after the rinse, it will regrettably get the good stuff. Of course, my wife has started rumbling about no longer needing all the space in her big, four-year-old Sequoia. I, in turn, have started scheming to trade not the Sequoia, but my G instead. That "Tree" is an infinitely better vehicle than my G will ever be, and I'd gladly give up the "performance" for this hand-me-down. And even with its greater thirst, offset by its acceptance of 87 vs premium, the Seq will cost less than ten bucks more per week to feed.
Hmmmmmmmm -- the G may not get any more of the green. . .
The G is a nice-looking car, but I never thought Infinity was up-to-snuff when compared to Lexus. I have a definate soft-spot for the Acura TSX.
My mom's 2004 Chevrolet Malibu Classic had a similar problem. The dealership she took it to (who wasn't the selling dealer) blamed the noise on the brake pads being worn down and tried to sell a tire rotation and a throttle body cleaning. ***? The brake pads are fine and the noise was NOT coming from them. I got the car out of that place as fast as I could.
Then I posted a query about the problem on http://www.flatratetech.com , was informed there is a TSB that came out in May 2005 about the problem, went to the local library where they have Mitchell's On Demand and printed the TSB out. I also found out that if I put my finger on the driver side top strut bolt I could feel it vibrating in time with the squeak as I pushed down on the front of the car.
I took the car and the TSB which says to replace the spring seat to the selling dealer, who not only fixed the driver's side, they fixed the passenger side too and replaced the strut mount in addition to the spring seat and all of this in less than 2 hours! I brought the car in at 7:30AM on Friday, it was done by 9:20AM. I thought I was gonna be there at least till noon. They also didn't try to sell a bunch of maintenance services, although they did point out that the VA safety inspection sticker had expired last month (I had wanted them to do the safety inspection anyway).
Those are different Mustang owners than the ones I know. I consider mine about as sophisicated as a riding lawn mower.
I don't say that as a bad thing, just the way I think about them. Even the new ones, which I intend to buy in a year or so unless something else really stellar comes along, are very simple cars.
A V8, a manual trans, a live axle. Just like they always were. The newer level of refinement doesn't really change what they are IMO. That's ok though, I consider it a good thing...
i remember back in the day when the over head cam mustangs came out. my neighbors were mustang fanatics, the husband, wife and 2 kids all had their own mustangs. they said they would never own a over head cam engine as they are unreliable. somthing about copying the dirty japanese comes to mind. oh they went on and on about how the 5.0 was practically the almighty himself.
american muscle! detroit iron!
this is the kind of people who had those 5 inch super high rise fiberglass hoods that were left unpainted or even spary painted flat black for that "racing " look. on a 100% stock car no less. just a drop in k&n filter was it for performance mods.
so fast foreward to today. i still see the family around once in a while. they are still all american muscle, kids are grown up. they all still drive their stock cars with high rise hoods. one difference though, their old mustangs are gone and newer ones have taken their place. all over head cams no less
those dirty japs must know something afterall
my point in this story is that i think alot of american buyers are perfectly willing to be passified with small changes and medicore technology. it took these people years to accept an over head cam engine. and to this day they are still prefectly happy with the same old straight axle thats been in use for the history of the car. i think ameircan people dont like change. they just want those fake air scoops on the mustang that look like honneycomb. if that was on an asian car it would be called rice because the air scoops are fake. a friend of mine had a trans am with fake air scoops on the hood and front fenders right from the factory. on an asian car, its rice. on american car, its "stiling".
people are slow to change.
american muscle! detroit iron!
this is the kind of people who had those 5 inch super high rise fiberglass hoods that were left unpainted or even spary painted flat black for that "racing " look. on a 100% stock car no less. just a drop in k&n filter was it for performance mods.
so fast foreward to today. i still see the family around once in a while. they are still all american muscle, kids are grown up. they all still drive their stock cars with high rise hoods. one difference though, their old mustangs are gone and newer ones have taken their place. all over head cams no less
those dirty japs must know something afterall
my point in this story is that i think alot of american buyers are perfectly willing to be passified with small changes and medicore technology. it took these people years to accept an over head cam engine. and to this day they are still prefectly happy with the same old straight axle thats been in use for the history of the car. i think ameircan people dont like change. they just want those fake air scoops on the mustang that look like honneycomb. if that was on an asian car it would be called rice because the air scoops are fake. a friend of mine had a trans am with fake air scoops on the hood and front fenders right from the factory. on an asian car, its rice. on american car, its "stiling".
people are slow to change.
There's a subset of people with every car brand and model that you have to wonder about. 58 yo guys that buy Corvettes and have never driven the car at anything near it's limit, middle managers with Beemers because they're "German engineering" but mostly because they cost more than what the neighbor just bought, Hondas with giant wings, 4X4 trucks with 38" tires that have never been on terrain tougher than tall grass, etc.
Mustangs are about simplicity and performance for the $$ and the ability to increase the performance for minimal dollars. That's why you see so many modded 5.0 Mustangs. It's a cheap car that's cheap to mod, and if you can't afford to modify it's still not a slouch in stock form.
My problem with the Ford modular motors is they're physically large vs. the displacement and power output. They should have started with a base displacement of 5 liters or more IMO. I don't find them too complicated compared to a lot of other designs. My 3.4L, 4 cam Toyota is a lot more complicated and I'm not sure why exactly. It's doesn't make any more power or torque or get better mileage than other simpler designs of about the same displacement. So what was the point exactly? I don't care about the engineering statement an engine like that makes, I care about the bottom line numbers.
That's why cars a like the Mustang are appealing. Even if it's crude as he|| the numbers are good for the $$ spent.
Mustangs are about simplicity and performance for the $$ and the ability to increase the performance for minimal dollars. That's why you see so many modded 5.0 Mustangs. It's a cheap car that's cheap to mod, and if you can't afford to modify it's still not a slouch in stock form.
My problem with the Ford modular motors is they're physically large vs. the displacement and power output. They should have started with a base displacement of 5 liters or more IMO. I don't find them too complicated compared to a lot of other designs. My 3.4L, 4 cam Toyota is a lot more complicated and I'm not sure why exactly. It's doesn't make any more power or torque or get better mileage than other simpler designs of about the same displacement. So what was the point exactly? I don't care about the engineering statement an engine like that makes, I care about the bottom line numbers.
That's why cars a like the Mustang are appealing. Even if it's crude as he|| the numbers are good for the $$ spent.
Audi Junkie,
Since the G35, I've sorta figure that's part of Infinity value equation. I like their thinking - they put the development $$$ into the mechanical bits, while Lexus puts more into the interiors.
You don't own an Infiniti, do you robbobster. . .?
Ek, I echo your sentiments for never, ever wanting to own another foreign car from a specific Japanes car maker...but my least favorite brand is not Nissan, but rather Toyota. I got stung on that 99 Sienna.
While the Vue isn't as quiet at highway speeds, nor does it hold as much cargo, it's still wayyy nicer to drive.
To each his own, really. IMO, no car maker has a mandate on poor quality. Conversely, no car maker has a mandate on great quality. Looking at UOA's, some engines are glaring examples of incredible engineering (Toyota's 4.7L and 1.8L offerings come to mind) and other are simply a joke, GM's 3.1/3.4 and Ford's OHV 3.8L are fine examples of less than acceptable overall quality.
While the Vue isn't as quiet at highway speeds, nor does it hold as much cargo, it's still wayyy nicer to drive.
To each his own, really. IMO, no car maker has a mandate on poor quality. Conversely, no car maker has a mandate on great quality. Looking at UOA's, some engines are glaring examples of incredible engineering (Toyota's 4.7L and 1.8L offerings come to mind) and other are simply a joke, GM's 3.1/3.4 and Ford's OHV 3.8L are fine examples of less than acceptable overall quality.
ekpolk,
I own a Ford and a VW at this time.
I own a Ford and a VW at this time.
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