Things at normal state, the most wear is at startup. Because the lack of lubricant (that is coming). Having less turns in that regimen wouldn't help for some in here ... One engine start and go to straight 1,200 rpms for 5 seconds, the other goes to 1,000 rpms same period of time. I'm not talking about extreme cold starts, just average ISA 15C at MSL.
Thinner oils wear more the engine at startup Proof
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Originally Posted By: CT8
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Oh come now, maybe we are speaking two different versions of English here, I don't know. But it is simply ludicrist to assert that an Engine wouldn't turn over in cold weather because "...it took more power to pump the oil."
The engines simply won't turn over because the cold and thick oil has da*m near glued the rods solidly to the crankshaft.
Period.
Z.
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Oh come now, maybe we are speaking two different versions of English here, I don't know. But it is simply ludicrist to assert that an Engine wouldn't turn over in cold weather because "...it took more power to pump the oil."
The engines simply won't turn over because the cold and thick oil has da*m near glued the rods solidly to the crankshaft.
Period.
Z.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: zray
Originally Posted By: CT8
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Oh come now, maybe we are speaking two different versions of English here, I don't know. But it is simply ludicrist to assert that an Engine wouldn't turn over in cold weather because "...it took more power to pump the oil."
The engines simply won't turn over because the cold and thick oil has da*m near glued the rods solidly to the crankshaft.
Period.
Z.
Precisely...
Originally Posted By: CT8
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Oh come now, maybe we are speaking two different versions of English here, I don't know. But it is simply ludicrist to assert that an Engine wouldn't turn over in cold weather because "...it took more power to pump the oil."
The engines simply won't turn over because the cold and thick oil has da*m near glued the rods solidly to the crankshaft.
Period.
Z.
Precisely...
Confirms my use of an oil pan heater in the winter. I get to avoid the flow issues.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
BTW I am using 0W-30 (GC) in our 2001 Impala, and 0W-40 Castrol Edge Euporien Formula in our 1985 Olds 88 with a 5 liter gas engine. 0W-XX provides the best cold cranking.
Only at the lowest temps.
Daaa, that is why I said cold cranking.
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
BTW I am using 0W-30 (GC) in our 2001 Impala, and 0W-40 Castrol Edge Euporien Formula in our 1985 Olds 88 with a 5 liter gas engine. 0W-XX provides the best cold cranking.
Only at the lowest temps.
Daaa, that is why I said cold cranking.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: zray
Originally Posted By: CT8
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Oh come now, maybe we are speaking two different versions of English here, I don't know. But it is simply ludicrist to assert that an Engine wouldn't turn over in cold weather because "...it took more power to pump the oil."
The engines simply won't turn over because the cold and thick oil has da*m near glued the rods solidly to the crankshaft.
Period.
Z.
Precisely...
http://www.stle.org/assets/document/The_Friction_Behavior_of_Individual_Components_of_a.pdf
Originally Posted By: zray
Originally Posted By: CT8
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Oh come now, maybe we are speaking two different versions of English here, I don't know. But it is simply ludicrist to assert that an Engine wouldn't turn over in cold weather because "...it took more power to pump the oil."
The engines simply won't turn over because the cold and thick oil has da*m near glued the rods solidly to the crankshaft.
Period.
Z.
Precisely...
http://www.stle.org/assets/document/The_Friction_Behavior_of_Individual_Components_of_a.pdf
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Things at normal state, the most wear is at startup. Because the lack of lubricant (that is coming). Having less turns in that regimen wouldn't help for some in here ... One engine start and go to straight 1,200 rpms for 5 seconds, the other goes to 1,000 rpms same period of time. I'm not talking about extreme cold starts, just average ISA 15C at MSL.
Again, you are worried about the wrong thing.
Look at the Stribeck curve. V corresponds to RPM. Engines experience more wear at lower RPM than higher RPM because there will be more metal-to-metal contact at lower RPM, as the oil-film strength falls with decreasing RPM. Speed is what keeps things lubricated, as the viscous force of the fluid increases with speed.
All engines idle fast when they are cold. This is the way it should be and it's not a concern for engine wear unless you race the cold engine beyond 3000 RPM or so.
Things at normal state, the most wear is at startup. Because the lack of lubricant (that is coming). Having less turns in that regimen wouldn't help for some in here ... One engine start and go to straight 1,200 rpms for 5 seconds, the other goes to 1,000 rpms same period of time. I'm not talking about extreme cold starts, just average ISA 15C at MSL.
Again, you are worried about the wrong thing.
Look at the Stribeck curve. V corresponds to RPM. Engines experience more wear at lower RPM than higher RPM because there will be more metal-to-metal contact at lower RPM, as the oil-film strength falls with decreasing RPM. Speed is what keeps things lubricated, as the viscous force of the fluid increases with speed.
All engines idle fast when they are cold. This is the way it should be and it's not a concern for engine wear unless you race the cold engine beyond 3000 RPM or so.
But I can see that some may think of cold cranking as any temperature where the engine has sat unused long enough for the temperature to be the same as ambient.
When I think of cold cranking I am talking about an engine that sat long enough to be at ambient and the ambient is really cold like -10 degree Fahrenheit or colder.
When I think of cold cranking I am talking about an engine that sat long enough to be at ambient and the ambient is really cold like -10 degree Fahrenheit or colder.
if the original premise of this thread, as stated by the OP were true ...
wouldn't a magnetic oil pan heater be the worst thing in the world you could do to your car?
wouldn't a magnetic oil pan heater be the worst thing in the world you could do to your car?
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
But I can see that some may think of cold cranking as any temperature where the engine has sat unused long enough for the temperature to be the same as ambient.
When I think of cold cranking I am talking about an engine that sat long enough to be at ambient and the ambient is really cold like -10 degree Fahrenheit or colder.
Important distinction.
But I can see that some may think of cold cranking as any temperature where the engine has sat unused long enough for the temperature to be the same as ambient.
When I think of cold cranking I am talking about an engine that sat long enough to be at ambient and the ambient is really cold like -10 degree Fahrenheit or colder.
Important distinction.
OP Huh?
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Things at normal state, the most wear is at startup. Because the lack of lubricant (that is coming).
Unless the oil is grossly misapplied (too thick to pump, or causes air binding by not flowing to the pick-up), start-up wear isn't due to lack of lubricant...it's there in seconds.
The wear occurs as parts aren't at their hot shape/size, the additives aren't at their functioning point, and lack of ring seal etc. cause condensation and acid attack.
The definitive startup wear test is the sequence IV, and the engine is running, and full of oil...and purposely kept in a "warm" state, not allowed up to operating temperature.
Things at normal state, the most wear is at startup. Because the lack of lubricant (that is coming).
Unless the oil is grossly misapplied (too thick to pump, or causes air binding by not flowing to the pick-up), start-up wear isn't due to lack of lubricant...it's there in seconds.
The wear occurs as parts aren't at their hot shape/size, the additives aren't at their functioning point, and lack of ring seal etc. cause condensation and acid attack.
The definitive startup wear test is the sequence IV, and the engine is running, and full of oil...and purposely kept in a "warm" state, not allowed up to operating temperature.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Wouldn't this just apply to bearings or is this true for all the lubricated components?
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Wouldn't this just apply to bearings or is this true for all the lubricated components?
My opinion is that specified oil for engine is is way thicker than needed on cold startup, plus ECU increases rpm for engine to work easier. Cold starts are not an issue unless you live in really cold place. Moderate rpm and LOAD when engine is cold will give the engine long life.
Actually most wear occur with misuse of motor. People tend to drive their cars on very low rpm to save petrol, and this practice is even encouraged by engine manufacturers to boost mpg. High load, low rpm are killers for engine liners. With this practice they become oval.
On other hand very high rpm wear out bearings. They are most stressed in this conditions.
Actually most wear occur with misuse of motor. People tend to drive their cars on very low rpm to save petrol, and this practice is even encouraged by engine manufacturers to boost mpg. High load, low rpm are killers for engine liners. With this practice they become oval.
On other hand very high rpm wear out bearings. They are most stressed in this conditions.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
...People tend to drive their cars on very low rpm to save petrol, and this practice is even encouraged by engine manufacturers to boost mpg. High load, low rpm are killers for engine liners...
Fully agreed - cheers from Hungary!
...People tend to drive their cars on very low rpm to save petrol, and this practice is even encouraged by engine manufacturers to boost mpg. High load, low rpm are killers for engine liners...
Fully agreed - cheers from Hungary!
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Wouldn't this just apply to bearings or is this true for all the lubricated components?
It's true for all components. Look at the Stribeck curve. Even in the boundary-lubrication, mixed-lubrication, and elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regions, you reduce friction when you increase speed (V), which means you move away from metal-to-metal contact. Put a block of metal on an oiled metal surface and there will be metal-to-metal contact (V = 0, the dot in the graph below). However, if you push the block and give it some speed, it will start lifting off from the surface -- just like ice-skating. Another example is hydroplaning of a car. If you keep increasing your speed on a watery road, above a certain speed, car will lift off and you will lose tire-to-road contact completely (minimum of the Stribeck curve). Note that the valvetrain uses boundary as well as elastohydrodynamic lubrication.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Wouldn't this just apply to bearings or is this true for all the lubricated components?
It's true for all components. Look at the Stribeck curve. Even in the boundary-lubrication, mixed-lubrication, and elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regions, you reduce friction when you increase speed (V), which means you move away from metal-to-metal contact. Put a block of metal on an oiled metal surface and there will be metal-to-metal contact (V = 0, the dot in the graph below). However, if you push the block and give it some speed, it will start lifting off from the surface -- just like ice-skating. Another example is hydroplaning of a car. If you keep increasing your speed on a watery road, above a certain speed, car will lift off and you will lose tire-to-road contact completely (minimum of the Stribeck curve). Note that the valvetrain uses boundary as well as elastohydrodynamic lubrication.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Wouldn't this just apply to bearings or is this true for all the lubricated components?
It's true for all components. Look at the Stribeck curve. Even in the boundary-lubrication, mixed-lubrication, and elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regions, you reduce friction when you increase speed, which means you move away from metal-to-metal contact. Put a block of metal on a oiled metal surface and there will be metal-to-metal contact (the dot in the graph below). However, if you push the block and give it some speed, it will start lifting off from the surface -- just like ice skating. Note that the valvetrain uses boundary as well as elastohydrodynamic lubrication.
Now that's very interesting indeed
Thank you very much
Would anyone care to add anything relevant here or is this pretty much got it?
Thanks again.
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
OP has forgot that in addition to cold starts, idling is also very bad for your engine. Idling is bad because the oil film thickness increases with RPM. Speed and viscosity is what keeps moving parts from making metal-to-metal contact.
His main concern was that with thinner oil engine turns faster and this may result in more wear. On the contrary, slower the idle speed, more is the wear on the engine. You still don't want to race a cold engine over 3000 RPM but faster idle is actually better than slower idle as far as wear is concerned because the oil film between the moving parts will be thicker with more RPM.
Wouldn't this just apply to bearings or is this true for all the lubricated components?
It's true for all components. Look at the Stribeck curve. Even in the boundary-lubrication, mixed-lubrication, and elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regions, you reduce friction when you increase speed, which means you move away from metal-to-metal contact. Put a block of metal on a oiled metal surface and there will be metal-to-metal contact (the dot in the graph below). However, if you push the block and give it some speed, it will start lifting off from the surface -- just like ice skating. Note that the valvetrain uses boundary as well as elastohydrodynamic lubrication.
Now that's very interesting indeed
Thank you very much
Would anyone care to add anything relevant here or is this pretty much got it?
Thanks again.
Clevy,
Gokhan has nailed it...only qualifiers that I would have are:
* that the number along the bottom also has "load" (the "P" is projected pressure, force over bearing area);
* as per the discussion, that curve is the non friction modified curve.
When friction modifiers are introduced, and they reach their functional temperatures, the curve(s) are like the below...note that the friction modifiers have to be "functioning".
By entering boundary lubrication, with friction modifiers, lower frictional losses can result, but obviously, that's not th place that you want to be for long from a wear persepective, reliant on the additives.
In the wait time for the additives to be functional (if they are thermally activated), wear results...see sequence IVA wear tests that I keep harping about. Low speed, fully lubricated, but held at low temperatures representative of warm-up not warm.
Another thread where I tried to discuss it. and another with the usual detractors.
Gokhan has nailed it...only qualifiers that I would have are:
* that the number along the bottom also has "load" (the "P" is projected pressure, force over bearing area);
* as per the discussion, that curve is the non friction modified curve.
When friction modifiers are introduced, and they reach their functional temperatures, the curve(s) are like the below...note that the friction modifiers have to be "functioning".
By entering boundary lubrication, with friction modifiers, lower frictional losses can result, but obviously, that's not th place that you want to be for long from a wear persepective, reliant on the additives.
In the wait time for the additives to be functional (if they are thermally activated), wear results...see sequence IVA wear tests that I keep harping about. Low speed, fully lubricated, but held at low temperatures representative of warm-up not warm.
Another thread where I tried to discuss it. and another with the usual detractors.
We have heard this argued both ways...that thin oil gets pressure quicker, etc.
We used a pressure transducer on the Snap-On Vantage and recorded the amount of time in m/s it took to develop oil pressure and there was no difference between 20/w50 and 5/w30 at 38°F ambient temperatures.
We run either 5/w50 or 15/w50 in everything...FWIW
P.S. we made equal HP & TQ on the dyno with a Turbo E-85 2JZ Totyota making 850 RWHP with both 5/w30 and 20/w50 Valvoline
We used a pressure transducer on the Snap-On Vantage and recorded the amount of time in m/s it took to develop oil pressure and there was no difference between 20/w50 and 5/w30 at 38°F ambient temperatures.
We run either 5/w50 or 15/w50 in everything...FWIW
P.S. we made equal HP & TQ on the dyno with a Turbo E-85 2JZ Totyota making 850 RWHP with both 5/w30 and 20/w50 Valvoline
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