The thicker oil obviously covers up the engine tick a bit better then thin oil but actual engine wear is a whole other question altogether. Even with all the ticking and clanking, the 5w30 will protect the engine for a long time, so the question is, who cares about any of this?
Thinner oils wear more the engine at startup Proof
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Originally Posted By: virginoil
Holden recommends the 5w-30 grade for the old Build 3800 V6 in everyday driving in Austrlia but in the snow or extreme cold it recommends the 15w-40 grade.
Is the Holden / GM recommendation flawed ?
There is some truth to the OPs claim thinner oils do were more in certain conditions and climate.
A sound test to evaluate wear could be the ??
Some where someone got it basakwards. As the temperature goes down the preferred first number goes down. 5W-XX will pump and pour at a much lower temperature than 15W-XX. The coldest temperature you should run (start a cold engine at) with any 15W-XX is 20 degree Fahrenheit, and that is pushing that low temperature limit.
Holden recommends the 5w-30 grade for the old Build 3800 V6 in everyday driving in Austrlia but in the snow or extreme cold it recommends the 15w-40 grade.
Is the Holden / GM recommendation flawed ?
There is some truth to the OPs claim thinner oils do were more in certain conditions and climate.
A sound test to evaluate wear could be the ??
Some where someone got it basakwards. As the temperature goes down the preferred first number goes down. 5W-XX will pump and pour at a much lower temperature than 15W-XX. The coldest temperature you should run (start a cold engine at) with any 15W-XX is 20 degree Fahrenheit, and that is pushing that low temperature limit.
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BTW I am using 0W-30 (GC) in our 2001 Impala, and 0W-40 Castrol Edge Euporien Formula in our 1985 Olds 88 with a 5 liter gas engine. 0W-XX provides the best cold cranking.
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Originally Posted By: dlundblad
An engine spins the same at start up regardless of oil weight. A thicker oil would only put a larger load on the engine, but would only be noticeable at colder temps.
There is a marked difference in how slow/fast my Accord turns over when the oil is thicker/thinner.
An engine spins the same at start up regardless of oil weight. A thicker oil would only put a larger load on the engine, but would only be noticeable at colder temps.
There is a marked difference in how slow/fast my Accord turns over when the oil is thicker/thinner.
I think that virginoil had a typo, here's the manual from my v-6 Caprice...rubbish photo, I wanted the Caprice badge in there too.
20W50, except in "snow areas" where 15W40 is "specified"...
Notes
1) contrary to some belief presented by other(s) on the board, I've never run the recommended grade, usually 1-2 grades below what my manual recommends (largely based on viewing what my OEM does in oteh markets).
2) 30s were widely available in Oz in the mid 80s that I can remember selling them, so Holden had no "distribution" reason to not specify a 30...1997, there were ILSAC xW30s at every Caltex service station.
3) There's a distinct lack of "piles of failed" 3800s across the country.
20W50, except in "snow areas" where 15W40 is "specified"...
Notes
1) contrary to some belief presented by other(s) on the board, I've never run the recommended grade, usually 1-2 grades below what my manual recommends (largely based on viewing what my OEM does in oteh markets).
2) 30s were widely available in Oz in the mid 80s that I can remember selling them, so Holden had no "distribution" reason to not specify a 30...1997, there were ILSAC xW30s at every Caltex service station.
3) There's a distinct lack of "piles of failed" 3800s across the country.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Hear how quickier the engine turns with 5w30, as opposed to 15w40, specially for the initial 10 seconds. It gives a lot of spin while the pressure builds up. Even the tick-rattle of valve train is way more pronounced with the thinner oil.
Sound test comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHwq1b3004
Start
??
Look at the graphs carefully. 5W-30 (starts around 35 seconds) is a lot quieter. 15W-40 (starts at the beginning of the video) is changing between ± 0.3, whereas 5W-30 is changing between ± 0.2. Also, initial spikes are higher with 15W-40 as well.
So, thicker oil is noisier and causes more wear at start-up as most people will say.
Moreover, the argument the first commenter made on YuTube is silly. If the engine is turning quicker with thinner oil, that means there is less friction. If there is less friction, there is less wear -- not more wear. Not to mention that a faster turning engine and an easier flowing, thinner oil will achieve the initial lubrication flow faster.
Hear how quickier the engine turns with 5w30, as opposed to 15w40, specially for the initial 10 seconds. It gives a lot of spin while the pressure builds up. Even the tick-rattle of valve train is way more pronounced with the thinner oil.
Sound test comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHwq1b3004
Start
??
Look at the graphs carefully. 5W-30 (starts around 35 seconds) is a lot quieter. 15W-40 (starts at the beginning of the video) is changing between ± 0.3, whereas 5W-30 is changing between ± 0.2. Also, initial spikes are higher with 15W-40 as well.
So, thicker oil is noisier and causes more wear at start-up as most people will say.
Moreover, the argument the first commenter made on YuTube is silly. If the engine is turning quicker with thinner oil, that means there is less friction. If there is less friction, there is less wear -- not more wear. Not to mention that a faster turning engine and an easier flowing, thinner oil will achieve the initial lubrication flow faster.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Have you looked at the two graphs side by side?
Maybe your going deaf?
Sure, the thickness of the bands are different. The reason is rpm, the wider, the QUICKER.
Don't you know how to read a sound graph, though.
Have you looked at the two graphs side by side?
Maybe your going deaf?
Sure, the thickness of the bands are different. The reason is rpm, the wider, the QUICKER.
Don't you know how to read a sound graph, though.
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Have you looked at the two graphs side by side?
Maybe your going deaf?
Sure, the thickness of the bands are different. The reason is rpm, the wider, the QUICKER.
Don't you know how to read a sound graph, though.
Read my previous post. You got things mixed up completely. Vertical axis is sound level. Horizontal axis is time. At cold start, engine with 15W-40 is slower and noisier than with 5W-30 because of more friction -- plain and simple.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Have you looked at the two graphs side by side?
Maybe your going deaf?
Sure, the thickness of the bands are different. The reason is rpm, the wider, the QUICKER.
Don't you know how to read a sound graph, though.
Read my previous post. You got things mixed up completely. Vertical axis is sound level. Horizontal axis is time. At cold start, engine with 15W-40 is slower and noisier than with 5W-30 because of more friction -- plain and simple.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Hear how quickier the engine turns with 5w30, as opposed to 15w40, specially for the initial 10 seconds. It gives a lot of spin while the pressure builds up. Even the tick-rattle of valve train is way more pronounced with the thinner oil.
Sound test comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHwq1b3004
Start
??
Look at the graphs carefully. 5W-30 (starts around 35 seconds) is a lot quieter. 15W-40 (starts at the beginning of the video) is changing between ± 0.3, whereas 5W-30 is changing between ± 0.2. Also, initial spikes are higher with 15W-40 as well.
So, thicker oil is noisier and causes more wear at start-up as most people will say.
Moreover, the argument the first commenter made on YuTube is silly. If the engine is turning quicker with thinner oil, that means there is less friction. If there is less friction, there is less wear -- not more wear. Not to mention that a faster turning engine and an easier flowing, thinner oil will achieve the initial lubrication flow faster.
I mean the engine turns quicker because of less oil drag on thinner oil, the f.i. hjas to tune the idle down. Less drag do not mean less metal-to-metal friction. Metal to metal friction can't be avoided for the initial period (unless useing a solid lubricant dissolve in oil). If the engine turns quicker, there will be more wear. That's because old Anti-drain back valves aren't that good, they leak out a lot overnight. Also because the oil go down to the sump and every engine has to fill their filter - after - startup and send the oil throght plumbing to the head and various part. Those take time and revolutions to accomplish ... Less revolutions, less wear.
Since pumps are positive displacement, the thicker oil will win the battle for protection (drag).
Take that into consideration over the discussion, if you will.
I WON!!! hahahahaha
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Hear how quickier the engine turns with 5w30, as opposed to 15w40, specially for the initial 10 seconds. It gives a lot of spin while the pressure builds up. Even the tick-rattle of valve train is way more pronounced with the thinner oil.
Sound test comparison
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHwq1b3004
Start
??
Look at the graphs carefully. 5W-30 (starts around 35 seconds) is a lot quieter. 15W-40 (starts at the beginning of the video) is changing between ± 0.3, whereas 5W-30 is changing between ± 0.2. Also, initial spikes are higher with 15W-40 as well.
So, thicker oil is noisier and causes more wear at start-up as most people will say.
Moreover, the argument the first commenter made on YuTube is silly. If the engine is turning quicker with thinner oil, that means there is less friction. If there is less friction, there is less wear -- not more wear. Not to mention that a faster turning engine and an easier flowing, thinner oil will achieve the initial lubrication flow faster.
I mean the engine turns quicker because of less oil drag on thinner oil, the f.i. hjas to tune the idle down. Less drag do not mean less metal-to-metal friction. Metal to metal friction can't be avoided for the initial period (unless useing a solid lubricant dissolve in oil). If the engine turns quicker, there will be more wear. That's because old Anti-drain back valves aren't that good, they leak out a lot overnight. Also because the oil go down to the sump and every engine has to fill their filter - after - startup and send the oil throght plumbing to the head and various part. Those take time and revolutions to accomplish ... Less revolutions, less wear.
Since pumps are positive displacement, the thicker oil will win the battle for protection (drag).
Take that into consideration over the discussion, if you will.
I WON!!! hahahahaha
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Originally Posted By: Kuato
So a guy comes in with some evidence he collected showing a thinner oil (5w30) makes less noise at startup than a thicker oil (15w40) and that he thinks it causes less oil, and everyone is telling him he is wrong?
Assuming you meant "less wear," not "less oil."
If so, the answer is yes. As well they should.
If I bring in evidence that my cat is sick, and then tell you it's because of aliens, can I therefore claim that I have found evidence of aliens?
So a guy comes in with some evidence he collected showing a thinner oil (5w30) makes less noise at startup than a thicker oil (15w40) and that he thinks it causes less oil, and everyone is telling him he is wrong?
Assuming you meant "less wear," not "less oil."
If so, the answer is yes. As well they should.
If I bring in evidence that my cat is sick, and then tell you it's because of aliens, can I therefore claim that I have found evidence of aliens?
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Originally Posted By: Kuato
So a guy comes in with some evidence he collected showing a thinner oil (5w30) makes less noise at startup than a thicker oil (15w40) and that he thinks it causes less oil, and everyone is telling him he is wrong? This is just the sort of thing that some folks have been demanding for some time.
well done, BITOG.
[insert discussion here about ambient temperature]
Reread what you said. It makes zero sense. Also look at the title.. While it appears English isn't the OPs first language, I'd hope one can decipher it enough to know he's talking about wear. Engine speed is also mentioned in his first post.
Yeah...got to stop posting via phone. Substitute "less wear" for "less oil".
IMO OP's post is worthy of discussiin, but all he got was a barrage of criticism.
Originally Posted By: Kuato
So a guy comes in with some evidence he collected showing a thinner oil (5w30) makes less noise at startup than a thicker oil (15w40) and that he thinks it causes less oil, and everyone is telling him he is wrong? This is just the sort of thing that some folks have been demanding for some time.
[insert discussion here about ambient temperature]
Reread what you said. It makes zero sense. Also look at the title.. While it appears English isn't the OPs first language, I'd hope one can decipher it enough to know he's talking about wear. Engine speed is also mentioned in his first post.
Yeah...got to stop posting via phone. Substitute "less wear" for "less oil".
IMO OP's post is worthy of discussiin, but all he got was a barrage of criticism.
Engine noise is NOT an accurate measure of wear. It's just that simple. Some engines are noisier using thinner grades of oil. That is because of the oils insulating ability and nothing more.
I can list countless examples from motorcycles to cars and trucks where I used M1 and immediately the engine was louder. Whether it be more valvetrain noise as in was the case for my harley or a bottom end knock which was the case for my 04 ram hemi. Not to mention my Honda bikes and my trucks.
Does that mean M1 doesn't protect as well as other brands that contributed to less noise,absolutely not. All it means is the oil has less insulating ability.
The OP should have given the search function a shot because the idea of more noise is the equivalent of more wear has been discussed many times.
Lucas oil stabilizer wil quiet down a noisy engine too. Are we prepared to make the leap that using it will lessen wear? I certainly wouldn't condider making that claim.
So to conclude engine noise and an increase in acoustics dies not necessarily mean an increase in wear.
I
I can list countless examples from motorcycles to cars and trucks where I used M1 and immediately the engine was louder. Whether it be more valvetrain noise as in was the case for my harley or a bottom end knock which was the case for my 04 ram hemi. Not to mention my Honda bikes and my trucks.
Does that mean M1 doesn't protect as well as other brands that contributed to less noise,absolutely not. All it means is the oil has less insulating ability.
The OP should have given the search function a shot because the idea of more noise is the equivalent of more wear has been discussed many times.
Lucas oil stabilizer wil quiet down a noisy engine too. Are we prepared to make the leap that using it will lessen wear? I certainly wouldn't condider making that claim.
So to conclude engine noise and an increase in acoustics dies not necessarily mean an increase in wear.
I
First of all, OP got the engine noise in the video upside down. Video shows thinner is quieter but OP thought thicker is quieter since he didn't know how to read the sound-wave graphs.
One fact remains that in a cold engine, oil viscosity is 10, 100, or perhaps 1000 times more than the optimal operational viscosity. Using the oil with the thinnest cold viscosity ensures that the lubrication will start fastest. This is why they use multigrades instead of straight grades in modern times. Positive-displacement-pump argument is invalid, as it only applies to normal-flowing oil within a certain viscosity range.
Regarding engine running faster when cold, all engines idle fast when they are cold in order to warm up quickly. Idling slightly slower or slightly faster because of oil viscosity should be your least concern for engine wear. In fact, hardly anyone idles their engines when cold any more -- you should start driving in about 10 seconds, which is the optimal warm-up time for a cold engine.
Regarding friction, more friction in the valvetrain always means more wear, as it runs in elastohydrodynamic- and/or boundary- (metal-to-metal-contact-) lubrication regime. However, more friction in the bearings and cylinders doesn't necessarily mean more wear, as it could be caused by oil drag in hydrodynamic-lubrication regime. Overall engine friction is usually dominated by bearings, followed by cylinders, and valvetrain coming last.
Using a too-thin oil can cause excessive wear at high engine temperatures (not at cold engine temperatures) -- in the valvetrain (see this PDF article) as well as the cylinders and bearings. However, most modern gasoline engines will do fine with as thin as 0W-20. It could be too thin for some engines though. Moreover, the new 0W-16 and thinner grades should be avoided unless they are OEM-approved.
One fact remains that in a cold engine, oil viscosity is 10, 100, or perhaps 1000 times more than the optimal operational viscosity. Using the oil with the thinnest cold viscosity ensures that the lubrication will start fastest. This is why they use multigrades instead of straight grades in modern times. Positive-displacement-pump argument is invalid, as it only applies to normal-flowing oil within a certain viscosity range.
Regarding engine running faster when cold, all engines idle fast when they are cold in order to warm up quickly. Idling slightly slower or slightly faster because of oil viscosity should be your least concern for engine wear. In fact, hardly anyone idles their engines when cold any more -- you should start driving in about 10 seconds, which is the optimal warm-up time for a cold engine.
Regarding friction, more friction in the valvetrain always means more wear, as it runs in elastohydrodynamic- and/or boundary- (metal-to-metal-contact-) lubrication regime. However, more friction in the bearings and cylinders doesn't necessarily mean more wear, as it could be caused by oil drag in hydrodynamic-lubrication regime. Overall engine friction is usually dominated by bearings, followed by cylinders, and valvetrain coming last.
Using a too-thin oil can cause excessive wear at high engine temperatures (not at cold engine temperatures) -- in the valvetrain (see this PDF article) as well as the cylinders and bearings. However, most modern gasoline engines will do fine with as thin as 0W-20. It could be too thin for some engines though. Moreover, the new 0W-16 and thinner grades should be avoided unless they are OEM-approved.
Gokhan, similar findings from the SAE
http://papers.sae.org/932782/
Problem that people have with newer, lower friction lubricants is that reduction in friction is not equivalent to reduction in wear...can be demonstrated on the Stribeck curve that the least friction, in a friction modified regime is when things would start being damaged in a non FM regime...relying on additives to do the work, not hydrodynamics.
http://papers.sae.org/932782/
Problem that people have with newer, lower friction lubricants is that reduction in friction is not equivalent to reduction in wear...can be demonstrated on the Stribeck curve that the least friction, in a friction modified regime is when things would start being damaged in a non FM regime...relying on additives to do the work, not hydrodynamics.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Gokhan, similar findings from the SAE
http://papers.sae.org/932782/
Problem that people have with newer, lower friction lubricants is that reduction in friction is not equivalent to reduction in wear...can be demonstrated on the Stribeck curve that the least friction, in a friction modified regime is when things would start being damaged in a non FM regime...relying on additives to do the work, not hydrodynamics.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but I was saying that for the valvetrain, lower friction always means lower wear, as it lays in the boundary-lubrication or elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regime of the Stribeck curve. Valvetrain never works in the hydrodynamic regime.
For the hydrodynamically lubricated parts (bearings and parts of cylinders and rings), you want to be slightly above the minimum friction to be on the safe side. Nevertheless, there will always be moments where you will fall into the left of the minimum, and for that reason moly and other EP/AW/FM additives are crucial.
For those who aren't familiar with the Stribeck curve, this is what we are talking about. Valvetrain works in the left region and middle region, bearings work in the right region, cylinders work in all regions but more in the right region:
Gokhan, similar findings from the SAE
http://papers.sae.org/932782/
Problem that people have with newer, lower friction lubricants is that reduction in friction is not equivalent to reduction in wear...can be demonstrated on the Stribeck curve that the least friction, in a friction modified regime is when things would start being damaged in a non FM regime...relying on additives to do the work, not hydrodynamics.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say but I was saying that for the valvetrain, lower friction always means lower wear, as it lays in the boundary-lubrication or elastohydrodynamic-lubrication regime of the Stribeck curve. Valvetrain never works in the hydrodynamic regime.
For the hydrodynamically lubricated parts (bearings and parts of cylinders and rings), you want to be slightly above the minimum friction to be on the safe side. Nevertheless, there will always be moments where you will fall into the left of the minimum, and for that reason moly and other EP/AW/FM additives are crucial.
For those who aren't familiar with the Stribeck curve, this is what we are talking about. Valvetrain works in the left region and middle region, bearings work in the right region, cylinders work in all regions but more in the right region:
Gokhan,
what I was getting at was that people are misconstruing the overall reduction in engine friction that is around these days as producing less wear...to correlate more friction (hydrodynamic) with less moving contact is counterintuitive to many.
what I was getting at was that people are misconstruing the overall reduction in engine friction that is around these days as producing less wear...to correlate more friction (hydrodynamic) with less moving contact is counterintuitive to many.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Holden recommends the 5w-30 grade for the old Build 3800 V6 in everyday driving in Austrlia but in the snow or extreme cold it recommends the 15w-40 grade.
Is the Holden / GM recommendation flawed ?
There is some truth to the OPs claim thinner oils do were more in certain conditions and climate.
A sound test to evaluate wear could be the ??
That sounds backwards to me. 15w40 dino was the most common oil in Germany for decades and the engines would be a real bugger to start in real cold weather.
Many wouldn't even turn over.
Synthetics and the move to 10wXX took care of that problem for the most part.
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
Originally Posted By: virginoil
Holden recommends the 5w-30 grade for the old Build 3800 V6 in everyday driving in Austrlia but in the snow or extreme cold it recommends the 15w-40 grade.
Is the Holden / GM recommendation flawed ?
There is some truth to the OPs claim thinner oils do were more in certain conditions and climate.
A sound test to evaluate wear could be the ??
That sounds backwards to me. 15w40 dino was the most common oil in Germany for decades and the engines would be a real bugger to start in real cold weather.
Many wouldn't even turn over.
Synthetics and the move to 10wXX took care of that problem for the most part.
Takes more power to pump the oil .we agree.
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