So I'm thinking about trading in my Honda Element for a vw jetta tdi. Do any of you guys know if the new tdi engine design is a success? Are they hard and expensive to maintain? Do you think that getting one is a good idea? I test drove one last week and thought it was very nice. I drive a lot (3000+ miles a month between my two vehicles)and the fuel economy and range seem to be great on this car as well as the $1300 tax credit!
Thinking about buying a 2010 VW Jetta TDI
- Thread starter ryland
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I'd think ANY 2010 Diesel will have MAJOR emissions (more than any gas engine)...
That plus cost of diesel fuel has kept me away from one. The wife loves wagons and we loved our 86 Jetta. But VWs of late and all the problems made me not buy one.
She would LOVE a VW wagon with the TDI. We bought a Subaru instead.
A lot of people like them. But I think the price of them plus cost of diesel outweigh any cost savings. Sorta like a Hybrid over a normal gas car.
Take care, bill
That plus cost of diesel fuel has kept me away from one. The wife loves wagons and we loved our 86 Jetta. But VWs of late and all the problems made me not buy one.
She would LOVE a VW wagon with the TDI. We bought a Subaru instead.
A lot of people like them. But I think the price of them plus cost of diesel outweigh any cost savings. Sorta like a Hybrid over a normal gas car.
Take care, bill
I guess this is a new "clean diesel" technology. They guy at the dealership showed me that if you put your hand over the exaust it dosent smell like anything. it gets 42 mpg hwy and 30 city and supposedly it is capable of getting in the 50+ on roadtrips. Your right about the cost of diesel. Sometimes its expensive but right now in my area its less than regular fuel. I'm going to look again with my wife this weekend.
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
What's wrong with the Element?
Nothing is "wrong" with the element. We really like it but it dosent do that good with gas milage, I dont like the road noise, and I've had it 5 years and maybe I'm just getting bored. The only reason why I might just not get the Jetta and keep the element is the element is paid for!
Another thing is the gadgets in the vw are cool like the heated seats, bluetooth ect. Its now illigal to talk on your cell phone in Washington and Oregon without a hands free device yet its legal to drive down the road eating a cheeseburger
different issue I guess.
What's wrong with the Element?
Nothing is "wrong" with the element. We really like it but it dosent do that good with gas milage, I dont like the road noise, and I've had it 5 years and maybe I'm just getting bored. The only reason why I might just not get the Jetta and keep the element is the element is paid for!
Another thing is the gadgets in the vw are cool like the heated seats, bluetooth ect. Its now illigal to talk on your cell phone in Washington and Oregon without a hands free device yet its legal to drive down the road eating a cheeseburger
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Originally Posted By: ryland
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
What's wrong with the Element?
Nothing is "wrong" with the element. We really like it but it dosent do that good with gas milage, I dont like the road noise, and I've had it 5 years and maybe I'm just getting bored. The only reason why I might just not get the Jetta and keep the element is the element is paid for!
If you could do all your mileage with the Jetta then it probably would pay off in 6-7 years. If you get bored of it sooner then you will probably loose money but you are driving a "nicer" car than the honda.
Buying new cars to put on 36k miles a year isn't really a cheap prospect but a TDI may be the cheapest way to do it while having a near luxury ride.
Try a used TDI, you may like it as much for 1/2 the cash.
Originally Posted By: PRND3L
What's wrong with the Element?
Nothing is "wrong" with the element. We really like it but it dosent do that good with gas milage, I dont like the road noise, and I've had it 5 years and maybe I'm just getting bored. The only reason why I might just not get the Jetta and keep the element is the element is paid for!
If you could do all your mileage with the Jetta then it probably would pay off in 6-7 years. If you get bored of it sooner then you will probably loose money but you are driving a "nicer" car than the honda.
Buying new cars to put on 36k miles a year isn't really a cheap prospect but a TDI may be the cheapest way to do it while having a near luxury ride.
Try a used TDI, you may like it as much for 1/2 the cash.
ryland - Hit the VW forums! Their empirical experiences are what you want.
Diesel fuel is cheaper and easier to make than gasoline, but is often far more expensive than gas because of supply and demand, and diverted resources by oil companies. This can outweigh your fuel savings. So consider this and crunch some numbers.
You will like the torque. Great for daily driving. She will pull.
But a gas turbo with an aftermarket $3-400 chip is insane for power and fun. And your gas mileage will go UP, if you take it easy!
Diesel fuel is cheaper and easier to make than gasoline, but is often far more expensive than gas because of supply and demand, and diverted resources by oil companies. This can outweigh your fuel savings. So consider this and crunch some numbers.
You will like the torque. Great for daily driving. She will pull.
But a gas turbo with an aftermarket $3-400 chip is insane for power and fun. And your gas mileage will go UP, if you take it easy!
I have driven the 2010 Golf TDI, and the 2009 Jetta TDI. Right now (in Toronto at least) the price of regular and diesel is the same.
Tank range is incredible, suspension is sporty and comfortable at the same time. Fit and finish is good. If I wasn't so opposed to buying a brand new car vs. lightly used I would consider this as a car that I would own.
Fantastic automobile, 'nuff said. The added complexity of the aftertreatment systems would be the only thing to deter me from purchasing one.
If you do get one, I would suggest the 6 spd manual. The sixth gear ratio on the manual was much taller than the sixth gear on the automatic. Much lower highway cruise rpm.
I think the only thing to worry about in terms of maintenance is the obvious OCI's & correct oil choice + the fuel with the best lubricating qualities. Those tend to be ones with light bio-diesel mix (B2, B5) or using lubricity additives. The injection system will last considerably longer if you use the highest quality fuel.
Tank range is incredible, suspension is sporty and comfortable at the same time. Fit and finish is good. If I wasn't so opposed to buying a brand new car vs. lightly used I would consider this as a car that I would own.
Fantastic automobile, 'nuff said. The added complexity of the aftertreatment systems would be the only thing to deter me from purchasing one.
If you do get one, I would suggest the 6 spd manual. The sixth gear ratio on the manual was much taller than the sixth gear on the automatic. Much lower highway cruise rpm.
I think the only thing to worry about in terms of maintenance is the obvious OCI's & correct oil choice + the fuel with the best lubricating qualities. Those tend to be ones with light bio-diesel mix (B2, B5) or using lubricity additives. The injection system will last considerably longer if you use the highest quality fuel.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
I'd think ANY 2010 Diesel will have MAJOR emissions (more than any gas engine)...
That plus cost of diesel fuel has kept me away from one. The wife loves wagons and we loved our 86 Jetta. But VWs of late and all the problems made me not buy one.
She would LOVE a VW wagon with the TDI. We bought a Subaru instead.
A lot of people like them. But I think the price of them plus cost of diesel outweigh any cost savings. Sorta like a Hybrid over a normal gas car.
Take care, bill
U'd think wrong then...
A 2010 diesel passenger vehicle will not have "major" emissions like you say. The emission standards are much tougher than they used to be and comparable to gasoline engines.
Whether or not the cost of diesel outweighs that of a gas engine depends on what you drive now and how much diesel costs in your area. For me, the last time I calculated it, a diesel vehicle would need to average 31mpg to break even with my current vehicle.
You shouldn't compare diesels to hybrids, they both get good mileage but are optimal for different situations. Hybrids are great in city traffic. Diesels are better on the open road, especially if you live in a mountainous region like Utah.
I'd think ANY 2010 Diesel will have MAJOR emissions (more than any gas engine)...
That plus cost of diesel fuel has kept me away from one. The wife loves wagons and we loved our 86 Jetta. But VWs of late and all the problems made me not buy one.
She would LOVE a VW wagon with the TDI. We bought a Subaru instead.
A lot of people like them. But I think the price of them plus cost of diesel outweigh any cost savings. Sorta like a Hybrid over a normal gas car.
Take care, bill
U'd think wrong then...
A 2010 diesel passenger vehicle will not have "major" emissions like you say. The emission standards are much tougher than they used to be and comparable to gasoline engines.
Whether or not the cost of diesel outweighs that of a gas engine depends on what you drive now and how much diesel costs in your area. For me, the last time I calculated it, a diesel vehicle would need to average 31mpg to break even with my current vehicle.
You shouldn't compare diesels to hybrids, they both get good mileage but are optimal for different situations. Hybrids are great in city traffic. Diesels are better on the open road, especially if you live in a mountainous region like Utah.
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Check out the March 2010 issue of Car and Driver. They just wrapped up a 40k test of a 2009 Jetta TDI. Good info. After reading this artical in C&D, I may have to change my mind about VW's, 'cos......
FWIW, I swore off of VW's after putting up with a Pennsylvania plant-built '86 Golf, but the latest Consumer Report states that the new VW's are now at the top for reliability. Check around to confirm this. There's also a TDI web site.
FWIW, I swore off of VW's after putting up with a Pennsylvania plant-built '86 Golf, but the latest Consumer Report states that the new VW's are now at the top for reliability. Check around to confirm this. There's also a TDI web site.
Originally Posted By: Brons2
U'd think wrong then...
A 2010 diesel passenger vehicle will not have "major" emissions like you say. The emission standards are much tougher than they used to be and comparable to gasoline engines.
Whether or not the cost of diesel outweighs that of a gas engine depends on what you drive now and how much diesel costs in your area. For me, the last time I calculated it, a diesel vehicle would need to average 31mpg to break even with my current vehicle.
You shouldn't compare diesels to hybrids, they both get good mileage but are optimal for different situations. Hybrids are great in city traffic. Diesels are better on the open road, especially if you live in a mountainous region like Utah.
Ok, First of all you are correct about a Hybrid around here. They are not good on the highway at all. I've posted that here MANY times.
I should say that the emission equipment on a diesel will have more equipment and cost more to maintain and replace when time comes over a gas engine.
The new laws that went into effect a few years ago killed any chance for me to own a newer one. Why? I don't want the complex systems required to make a "clean" diesel.
Take care, bill
U'd think wrong then...
A 2010 diesel passenger vehicle will not have "major" emissions like you say. The emission standards are much tougher than they used to be and comparable to gasoline engines.
Whether or not the cost of diesel outweighs that of a gas engine depends on what you drive now and how much diesel costs in your area. For me, the last time I calculated it, a diesel vehicle would need to average 31mpg to break even with my current vehicle.
You shouldn't compare diesels to hybrids, they both get good mileage but are optimal for different situations. Hybrids are great in city traffic. Diesels are better on the open road, especially if you live in a mountainous region like Utah.
Ok, First of all you are correct about a Hybrid around here. They are not good on the highway at all. I've posted that here MANY times.
I should say that the emission equipment on a diesel will have more equipment and cost more to maintain and replace when time comes over a gas engine.
The new laws that went into effect a few years ago killed any chance for me to own a newer one. Why? I don't want the complex systems required to make a "clean" diesel.
Take care, bill
I couldn't get past the add'l purchase cost of the diesel version. I was looking at the sportwagen though, which is really in demand. If you factor in the higher price, loading up with options, no discount off list and slightly higher price for the fuel, where's the bargain? Seems like a deal for the manufacturer, but not so much for the customer.
Originally Posted By: Burt
I couldn't get past the add'l purchase cost of the diesel version. I was looking at the sportwagen though, which is really in demand. If you factor in the higher price, loading up with options, no discount off list and slightly higher price for the fuel, where's the bargain? Seems like a deal for the manufacturer, but not so much for the customer.
They have fake markups on the TDI's and say "well they are really in demand, thats why they are 7k above msrp" Thats a total lie. I told the sales guy flat out that I would never pay one cent above MSRP and he told me that thats ok but I would just have to stick to my guns when I talk to the money guy. If they are "so popular" why does the dealer by me have 14 of them?? Bunch of junk.
I couldn't get past the add'l purchase cost of the diesel version. I was looking at the sportwagen though, which is really in demand. If you factor in the higher price, loading up with options, no discount off list and slightly higher price for the fuel, where's the bargain? Seems like a deal for the manufacturer, but not so much for the customer.
They have fake markups on the TDI's and say "well they are really in demand, thats why they are 7k above msrp" Thats a total lie. I told the sales guy flat out that I would never pay one cent above MSRP and he told me that thats ok but I would just have to stick to my guns when I talk to the money guy. If they are "so popular" why does the dealer by me have 14 of them?? Bunch of junk.
The Jetta diesel is thousands more than regular gas model. At that rate it will take a long time to recoup your money. That and like ryland said, the markup is ridic. My friend was looking to get the Jetta diesel, but decided against it due to price. ALSO if you get it, get the manual, the auto is an automated manual and I have heard that not all the bugs have been worked out yet.
I wouldn't really worry about the emissions systems on VW diesels. They've got EGR (which has been around forever), a reducing catalyst (not that much different than what's on all gas cars), and a DPF. The DPF is the only new thing, but from what I understand, it's a fairly simple piece. At least the VW diesels don't have a urea tank you have to refill every 15K!
I've always liked the torque and mileage you can get from a diesel engine. Also, they sound cool. If they're still around when my present vehicle wears out, diesel-powered car would be one of the first things I'd look at.
I've always liked the torque and mileage you can get from a diesel engine. Also, they sound cool. If they're still around when my present vehicle wears out, diesel-powered car would be one of the first things I'd look at.
Telling the stealer that you'll pay not a penny above MSRP when the gas engined vehicles are going at invoice means you ARE paying well above the normal sticker increase for a Diesel model.
IF you are thinking about one, get on it as they WILL be more in demand and cost above MSRP soon.
Bill
IF you are thinking about one, get on it as they WILL be more in demand and cost above MSRP soon.
Bill
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
IF you are thinking about one, get on it as they WILL be more in demand and cost above MSRP soon.
Bill
Why do you say that?
IF you are thinking about one, get on it as they WILL be more in demand and cost above MSRP soon.
Bill
Why do you say that?
Originally Posted By: ryland
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
IF you are thinking about one, get on it as they WILL be more in demand and cost above MSRP soon.
Bill
Why do you say that?
Look at the prices of fuel. (gone from $2.44 to $2.69 this week alone)
And the driving season is not here yet. I'd say with everything going on that $3.50 to $4 for gas and above for Diesel this summer.
Diesel is $2.89 here right now.
The higher the price of fuel the less discounts for ANYTHING that gets fuel economy.
Of course, I could not have done our trip to the east coast last year when fuel was in the low $2 range.. We are going this year when its more $$. 6,200 miles round trip!
Take care, bill
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
IF you are thinking about one, get on it as they WILL be more in demand and cost above MSRP soon.
Bill
Why do you say that?
Look at the prices of fuel. (gone from $2.44 to $2.69 this week alone)
And the driving season is not here yet. I'd say with everything going on that $3.50 to $4 for gas and above for Diesel this summer.
Diesel is $2.89 here right now.
The higher the price of fuel the less discounts for ANYTHING that gets fuel economy.
Of course, I could not have done our trip to the east coast last year when fuel was in the low $2 range.. We are going this year when its more $$. 6,200 miles round trip!
Take care, bill
Quote:
They've got EGR (which has been around forever), a reducing catalyst (not that much different than what's on all gas cars), and a DPF. The DPF is the only new thing, but from what I understand, it's a fairly simple piece. At least the VW diesels don't have a urea tank you have to refill every 15K!
At first glance, the only difference appears to be the DPF. Like you say, they've had EGR for a while now.
Thing is, it's not that they've had EGR, it's how much EGR they've had. In order to meet the NOX requirements for Tier 2 Bin 5, they use obscene amounts of EGR... like 30-40% compared to
If you want my opinion, I would prefer an SCR system and add the urea when needed, knowing that I'm not leaning so heavily on the EGR to do all the NOX control.
Of course, automakers didn't think American drivers will be willing to put up with the addition of yet another bit of maintaince in the form of urea. That's what the domestics thought with their trucks and look where it's gotten them. They not have a bunch of upset customers with broken EGR systems who are distrusting of clean diesel technology. The common "solution" to this is buying kits to eliminate the EGR valve.
They've got EGR (which has been around forever), a reducing catalyst (not that much different than what's on all gas cars), and a DPF. The DPF is the only new thing, but from what I understand, it's a fairly simple piece. At least the VW diesels don't have a urea tank you have to refill every 15K!
At first glance, the only difference appears to be the DPF. Like you say, they've had EGR for a while now.
Thing is, it's not that they've had EGR, it's how much EGR they've had. In order to meet the NOX requirements for Tier 2 Bin 5, they use obscene amounts of EGR... like 30-40% compared to
If you want my opinion, I would prefer an SCR system and add the urea when needed, knowing that I'm not leaning so heavily on the EGR to do all the NOX control.
Of course, automakers didn't think American drivers will be willing to put up with the addition of yet another bit of maintaince in the form of urea. That's what the domestics thought with their trucks and look where it's gotten them. They not have a bunch of upset customers with broken EGR systems who are distrusting of clean diesel technology. The common "solution" to this is buying kits to eliminate the EGR valve.
My dad rented a 2.0 TDI recently built in mexico.
i found the visibility from the car to be really poor. it pales in comparison to my 05 camry which is a sea of windows.
another problem we had was filling up. not a single station had a nozzle that could deliver flow to the filler neck without being cut out. I don't know what's going on with the filler neck but the fit must be tight or something. he had to trickle fill EVERY tank of diesel... a royal PITA...
Even the gas jettas i wouldnt consider because of the visibility issue and that they need premium fuel, and are only offered only in turbo-supercharged motors.
it's a pity because i love VW, just wish they still had a NA petrol model down here. with good enough space, it felt a lot more claustrophobic than my camry.
i found the visibility from the car to be really poor. it pales in comparison to my 05 camry which is a sea of windows.
another problem we had was filling up. not a single station had a nozzle that could deliver flow to the filler neck without being cut out. I don't know what's going on with the filler neck but the fit must be tight or something. he had to trickle fill EVERY tank of diesel... a royal PITA...
Even the gas jettas i wouldnt consider because of the visibility issue and that they need premium fuel, and are only offered only in turbo-supercharged motors.
it's a pity because i love VW, just wish they still had a NA petrol model down here. with good enough space, it felt a lot more claustrophobic than my camry.
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