"thin" oil debate and strawmen

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Why do the thin is best crowd keep resorting to strawman arguments when it's discussed ?

"why hasn't my engine blown up at 231,462 miles ?"

"So you are saying that 0W-20 is destroying engines, show me a pile of melted metal"

There are plenty of logical and rational statements and arguments out there, but the thin crowd (tend to) want to put strawman arguments into the other's mouths, and then beat them down.

"My SUV is painted the same colour as an econocar, and both use 0W-20, proving that CAFE has nothing to do with thin oils."
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Why do the thin is best crowd keep resorting to strawman arguments when it's discussed ?

"why hasn't my engine blown up at 231,462 miles ?"

"So you are saying that 0W-20 is destroying engines, show me a pile of melted metal"

There are plenty of logical and rational statements and arguments out there, but the thin crowd (tend to) want to put strawman arguments into the other's mouths, and then beat them down.

"My SUV is painted the same colour as an econocar, and both use 0W-20, proving that CAFE has nothing to do with thin oils."


Its an attempt at rebutting t a statement which is itself unproven.


OR

It's difficult to prove X is not insufficient when compared to Y when Y itself has not been proven to be adequate.

 

[JOD]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Haven't seen the thick is better placing strawman arguments in the mouths of the thinner folk.

Got some examples ?


you can't possibly be serious? From the guy asking me "why don't I just use 3 in 1 oil, since if must be right up my alley", to the inverse of your exact statement "where are all of these destroyed engines from years of 30W and 40W oils", there are straw men on both sides of the aisle; I'd argue quite a few more from the advocated of thicker weight oils.

If people are going to make a continued implication that thick oils "protect better", I think it's reasonable to ask for some evidence. I also think that pointing out that cars with thin oils have proven to be durable doesn't exactly qualify as a "straw man argument". It's anecdote vs. "proof", but it's not exactly a straw man either, IMO.

As I said before though, the argument is a testament to the challenge of reason in the face of belief. "Belief" is always going to win in the minds of some people. If history has taught us anything, it's that undeniable fact.

 

[CATERHAM]

JOD well said, but I would add that reason in and of itself is also not enough. Something may be reasonably plauseable but still be proven to be totally wrong.
At the end of the day it does come down to actual experimental proof; hence the lubrication axiom; "as thin as possible, as thick as necessary".

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
I actually worry more about wear due to the removal of anti-wear additives to meet pollution standards. My truck is not under warranty, and therefore will be getting Red Line 0W30 from here on out. It is not certified to 6094M which is the only spec my owner's manual requires, but who cares. I am sure it will beat it with flying colors.

As an engineer, I have learned, and seen first hand, how extremes usually do not give the desired results. I believe the multi-vis 30W oils are generally the sweet spot of lubrication and protection. There are exceptions of course.

I BELIEVE[not feel] that too many people think 'if a 30W oil results in better fuel economy than a 40W or 50W oil, then a 20W or even a 10W oil will be even better, right?' Maybe, but what about wear?

Conversely, those that think 'if a 30W oil gives better protection than a 20W, then a 40W or 50W oil is better, right?' Hmmmm.....maybe.

I believe there is a bell curve of oil weight vs protection, and 30W is in the middle - the sweet spot. Again, this is for the average commuter car, not a BMW M5, Corvette, Porsche, Ferrari, etc....


I agree. 30W oil seems to be the sweet spot and is what many US manufacture settled on years ago. It comes down to they determined 2.9 HTHS was all that was required. Even high output Corvettes call for 5W30.

 

[mechtech2]

'Strawmen' arguments are often in the title of posts.

I think most of the guys around here are not that polarized. They recommend and use whatever is best.
As thin of an oil as we can safely use seems reasonable.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
The thread is about strawmen...e.g. the requirement for someone who points to an Australian owner's manual, for exactly the same engine (and "tolerances (sic)) to have to provide an island full of burned down motors on 20 oils to be allowed discuss the merits of a 20, 30, or 40 weight oil.


From my research on the issue, my G specifies 5w30 everywhere, which did surprise me. Nonetheless, I don't think we're going to come to a consensus about thick versus thin in all circumstances. 30 grades have been used here for decades with success.

North America is no more obsessed with thin oils than Europeans and Australians are with thick oils.

Perhaps engines (from a longevity standpoint) really don't "care" that much, and one can get a long life out of a vehicle whether using a 20 or a 40.

North American engineers have CAFE to contend with, and perhaps realizing that, within limits, viscosity doesn't drastically affect longevity, decided to use viscosity as a tool for other things.

In Australia, why fix what isn't broken?

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Garak

In Australia, why fix what isn't broken?


Except with mandatory voting! Sorry could not resist. Now if I could find a Victoria Bitter I would be set.

 

[rcy]

Victoria Secret would be nice too.

If you spell it "straw man", it's a thicker word because of the extra space. Henceforth, the thin crowd will use "strawman" arguments and the thick crowd will use
"straw man" arguments.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: dave1251
I will piggy back 440Magnum's post a little. If I am measuring oil pressure throughout the engines RPM spectrum and a 20 grade oil is providing specified oil pressure from the manufacture and along with my oil temperatures are not exceedingly high like rarely exceeding 100C why would I trade off with a higher grade of oil to obtain more pressure? How does that benefit the engine?


It doesn't. And might just hurt- for example: send filters into bypass when they don't need to go into bypass, trip the pressure regulator at a lower oil FLOW rate so that parts of the engine are starving for flow while others have adequate pressure.

Take my Ram 4.7. 80 fsckin' PSI on HOT 0w20 oil at speed, 20 PSI at idle, measured with a reliable mechanical gauge. And by hot oil, I mean hot after several hours of towing a trailer at 70 mph on I10 in west Texas in ambient temps of 105F and higher last summer. Now how on earth is that engine going to benefit from oil that is thicker, particularly in more ordinary everyday driving, provided that both oils have good additive packages?

But I'll be danged if I'm going to do the same with a 60s big-block or a German engine designed for thicker oil.

My point is that its not about the OIL so much as it is about the ENGINE design.



Bingo.

 

[Merkava_4]

I admire you Australian people; you got good common sense and exhibit the ability to think for yourselves.

People over here in America are a bunch of mindless sheeple following the pack of thin oil sheep.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I admire you Australian people; you got good common sense and exhibit the ability to think for yourselves.

People over here in America are a bunch of mindless sheeple following the pack of thin oil sheep.


I also admire Americans who can not verify for themselves such as read, observe, record, research, and then preach.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I admire you Australian people; you got good common sense and exhibit the ability to think for yourselves.

People over here in America are a bunch of mindless sheeple following the pack of thin oil sheep.


+1

 

[chainblu]

I don't know what oil viscosity any given 2012 Australian Ford specs at, but I doubt it's 5W20 like here in the states. That said, even if the oil cap and the manual DID say 5W20 and it was readily available, do you think Australians would be quick to use it? Probably not. Old habits die hard.

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Remember, my L67 is specced for 20W-50 in Oz, 15w40 in cold conditions, and I'm running 5w30.

And for that we salute you. But what do your mates say when you tell them you run 5W30. Do they just shake their heads and ask if you drink Foster's as well?

 

[Shannow]

Have a difficulty on some of the L67 forums combatting the "Penrite advantage"...but you get that.

As to fosters, that may be the accusation, but thick is best...Coopers' Sparkling Ale (bought some in Guyserville Ca, so it's avalable over there)

 

[supercity]

Originally Posted By: chainblu
I don't know what oil viscosity any given 2012 Australian Ford specs at, but I doubt it's 5W20 like here in the states. That said, even if the oil cap and the manual DID say 5W20 and it was readily available, do you think Australians would be quick to use it? Probably not. Old habits die hard.

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Remember, my L67 is specced for 20W-50 in Oz, 15w40 in cold conditions, and I'm running 5w30.

And for that we salute you. But what do your mates say when you tell them you run 5W30. Do they just shake their heads and ask if you drink Foster's as well?

The current Aussie Ford straight 6 uses a 5w30. You cant buy 5w20 conventional. 5w30 conventional is hard to get.

I just looked on the Aussie Valvoline site. Their oil guide specs 15w40 or 20w50 for my Toyota. Toyota say 10w30 and the oil cap says 5w30.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Coopers' Sparkling Ale


I drink a bit of beer (just got home from work after 5 cans of Lion Brown) and will usually persevere with a non palatable beer - but had to use Coopers Ale in my slug trap.

 

[supercity]

Everything brewed by Lion and Coopers' is pretty unpalatable.

 

[kr_bitog]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Also, what do you mean "go back" to 0w30 or "stick with" 5w30? They both are "30" weight oils.

Originally Posted By: kr_bitog
Agree, but I also believe the reserve wear margin is better with thick oil. I have just thrown away my Toyota 1NZ-FE after 150k km on 30 weight oil. There is no smoke but it burns oil like crazy, the last time I tried to flush, it spewed smoke.

The replacement comes with Prestone 5w-40 synthetic, interestingly it accelerates good and quiet. My old engine always feel sluggish with 40 weight oil.
So now still feel undecided whether I should go back to Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w30 or stick with Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w30 or others.


Even they are 30 weight, they have different viscosity in 100 C and HTHS as well as grouped as A5 or A3. BTW, I have dumped the 5w-40 and put 0w-30, so far it seems the acceleration is better but quietness and vibration going up. Let wait for few hundred km, if the moly in it will start to better coat and reduce the NVH.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I admire you Australian people; you got good common sense and exhibit the ability to think for yourselves.

People over here in America are a bunch of mindless sheeple following the pack of thin oil sheep.


+1


I admire American and Americans, because: A. When America sneezes the world catches a cold. B. America leads and the world follows.

But then again I'm proud to be an American.

BTW I like the Aussies too.

 

[virginoil]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx

I agree. 30W oil seems to be the sweet spot and is what many US manufacture settled on years ago. It comes down to they determined 2.9 HTHS was all that was required. Even high output Corvettes call for 5W30.


Eurozone says 3.5cP HTHS minimum is all that is require not 2.9cP HTHS.