Thick Crowd

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The thicker rest of the world may have availability issues ...different fuel economy modalities ...different lots of stuff. 5w-20 is a product of a national policy ..and the motoring public doesn't seem to be grinding to a halt because of it.
 
Originally Posted By: bruce381
IMHO the best all around oil vis is 10/30 with 15/40 a close second they both are low on VII have good HTHS and made with GPII are offer about the best all around perfromance value.
bruce
Thanks Bruce. I will keep this with my important papers. BTW, I maybe just did one better. I mixed 10w40 about 50/50 with 20w to get what I figure must be a 15w30!

But would the viscosity blending equation work between a 20w and a 10w40. Or would it be more like the 10w and 20w mix as base oils and the VII for the 40 part spreads over it? The first way I get about 10.5 cSt, but the second way ....
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The rest of the world may also not be able to get the high quality lubricants that we in the US can. If all you have available is a lower quality oil, perhaps something that would meet SG or SH oil specs, then thicker would pretty much be the only way to go. I only trust 5W-20 in my car because of the SL and SM oils that are available today. Otherwise I'd still be running a 5W-30 or 10W-30.
 
"The thicker rest of the world may have availability issues ...different fuel economy modalities ...different lots of stuff. 5w-20 is a product of a national policy ..and the motoring public doesn't seem to be grinding to a halt because of it. "

The thicker rest of the world seems to typically have higher speed limits, they typically run smaller engines, deal with higher fuel costs, and appear to have longer change intervals. The thicker rest of the world in Europe looked carefully at thinner oils for fuel economy / CO2 but due to issues with durability and the very minimal gains declined to implement it. In the US it was implemented to improve fleet mileage so that makers could continue selling higher profit margin vehicles with lower fuel economy (pickups, SUVs, minivans, higher hp cars, etc).
 
Well, when the passengers are getting out to push the just post WWII school bus that's finally migrated from Mexico down the line, it's probably a wise thing to use 15w-40 if you can get it.
 
But in Europe they typically run longer OCIs and not with higher quality oil. A European oil industry person once told me the difference is the gasoline, that Europe (Germany at least) has much higher quality gasoline than USA, implying that our gasoline is hindering our going longer OCIs. Not sure it makes sense, but worth throwing out for comment.

Other thing, some brands will use more of a higher group number base oil in their 5w30 vs their 10w30, which is why my message above was qualified with "all else equal."
 
"Well, when the passengers are getting out to push the just post WWII school bus that's finally migrated from Mexico down the line, it's probably a wise thing to use 15w-40 if you can get it."

How about them people in Europe, using oils that have cults built around them over here, driving in some cars that have people in the rest of the world so excited that they might as well run in circles and whiz on themselves like some little dog. What US made luxury, high performance, off road, or economy passenger vehicles are in high demand around the world ? Not too many, in spite of the fuel savings from using 5w20. Also, even when a '5w20 company' like Ford pulls out the stops and makes a 'supercar' like the GT, they recommend something like 5w50.

What is adequate in low stress use isn't necessarily optimum, something apparent when looking at the thicker rest of the world.
 
Not the same animal, 1sttruck ..and you know it.

We have engineers that target a mass market of drivers ..THE MASS MARKET of drivers. We don't have engineers sitting around doing little more than over complicating the wheel to squeeze .0000000000009 more hp/ltr, or .000000092 more G's on the skidpad ..or .00000000000000000000000001 faster response in the suspension ultra control system... for $9999999.99 worth of hoop jumping.

..an exaggeration, granted ...but PEL-EZZZE..

Where are the mass droves of granaded US cars on 5w-20?? Do you have a concession to make ..or an ignor(e)ance of the reality of proof in the field??
 
"The thicker rest of the world may have availability issues ..."

Looking at Europe they appear to have a wider range of engine oil requirements so that's not the issue as they'd have it if they wanted it.

"different fuel economy modalities ..."

Yes, fuel has more expensive for a long time so one would think that they'd been using it a long time ago. Even if they've not considered it for the sake of fuel economy they may end up using it in some cases for CO2.

"different lots of stuff."

Yes, lots of different stuff, including fuel economy, but when they looked at it there were problems with the sustained high speeds in some areas and no way to control it. So they're forced to use thicker engine oils that are suitable for a wider range of operating conditions as well as longer oil change intervals.

"5w-20 is a product of a national policy ..and the motoring public doesn't seem to be grinding to a halt because of it."

Which says more about US driving habits than the inherent superiority of 5w20, regardless of what people are driving. As a national policy it's also been a bit of a disaster as it enabled auto makers to delay meking true gains in fuel economy, ans we'll probably end up giving them billions to keep them afloat.
 
I understand the function of VII's, but what are they comprised of? Are there different "grades" which are more resistant to breaking down? if so do any oils come to mind which use these high quality VII's? are there other ways to produce such a weight as 5w50 without all the VII's? What causes them to break down? (other than the spiney shinny things) and what exactly happens when they break down, is just the 0w or 5w aspect affected or is the 40w or 50w affected as well? And if uoa's prove your oil's staying withen the specd viscosity does it really matter how many VII's are in your oil? When sticking with the specd viscosity is the HTHS viscosity all that important? Thanx everyone for your input! and I hope i didnt offend anyone by starting this thread, I was just venting. As i am niether a thinnie or thickie.
 
I`ve read and have been told that out of all the muti vis oils,20W50 is the most "stable". I have also wondered just how different say,a 15W40/10W40 is from an SAE40 or a 20W50 from an SAE 50?
 
15w-40 hdeo seem to be the best at being the most stable. Usually a 10w-40 is a 10ish wt. oil that has vscosity improvers that when the oil heats up makes the oils viscosity similar to a 40wt. oil at the same temperature.
 
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Well, when the passengers are getting out to push the just post WWII school bus that's finally migrated from Mexico down the line, it's probably a wise thing to use 15w-40 if you can get it.
or Viente -catorce not sure about the spelling though or a SA rated oil.
 
i read on ae haas's writing that 5w30 synthetics are a 5w base, and 5w30 conventional oils are a 30w base, or vice versa? either way how does this effect the use/need of VII's and stability
 
Originally Posted By: bruce381
Gary you know I'll make what you want I just do not have to like it LOL. How is the jeep?


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Just a lubricant pharmacist filling a 'scipt, huh? I'm glad you take pride in your craft
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The jeep is cruising just fine at (currently) 20mpg in mixed driving. Not one tick ..not one drop of consumption (other than 16oz of samples). 5k will be another check and you can see if you desire to tweak or try something new. Elementals are probably not going to be stellar ..aside from Pb which will be zero or 1ppm ..but this engine hasn't had a good showing even with 5w-40 by BITOG standards. This will tell if the oil has endurance capability 5k. If it looks good ..I'll keep running it until it appears fatigued.

For all we know you've found the next evolution in motor oil for some proprietary car manufacturer. It may sport Xenocar OEM spec 100.0. You may trump the Euro's on alphabet soup.

I really couldn't be more pleased with the oil's apparent performance.
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Now if the tail pipe would start spitting nickels ..
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Originally Posted By: Taylor
i read on ae haas's writing that 5w30 synthetics are a 5w base, and 5w30 conventional oils are a 30w base, or vice versa? either way how does this effect the use/need of VII's and stability
Some syn oil have minimal VII and some can get by without VIIS due to their basestocks. Redline oil has a paper about it on their website. Redline oriented of course.
 
Well it definitely is not true that either 5w30 would have a 30w base stock. Both would have something like a 5w base stock, but the synthetic would need less VII to get it to the 5w30 condition. BTW, 30w is not even defined on the API chart.
 
Originally Posted By: Taylor
i read on ae haas's writing that 5w30 synthetics are a 5w base, and 5w30 conventional oils are a 30w base, or vice versa? either way how does this effect the use/need of VII's and stability


Go to this page:

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_motoroil.asp?categoryID=2

This example from the Red Line Oils page shows clearly that their fully synthetic single grade oils are based on the 30 or 40 or 50 grades but act as 10W-30 and 15W-40 and 15W-50 multi grade oils.

They can do this because the synthetic oils on which they are based have a very high natural viscosity index. This allows these oils to thicken less after you turn off your engine. Even though they are straight grade oils they naturally act as a multi grade oil.

In order to get less thickening on cool down with a conventional mineral based oil you have to start with a thin oil as a 5W and then add viscosity index improvers, VII, to prevent them from thinning as much when they are heated up to normal operating temperatures.

aehaas
 
There is no viscosity cure all. Viscosity choice is heavily dependent on the owners ability to conduct research for the intended application while resisting the temptation to follow the most popular herd...
Some choose to limit their research by just asking Billy, Joe, Bob or Bubba, and then accept the answer as the unquestionable gospel truth.
Others may come across BITOG only to find the same thick vs. thin questions and opinions. Many then become members and decide to join (or graze with both thick and thin herds) here at BITOG!
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IMPROVED HIGH RPM PROTECTION
The viscosity seen in a bearing or cam may be
completely different than the labeled viscosity.
Petroleum oils lose considerable viscosity at high
RPMs and high temperatures. In contrast, Red
Line synthetics are much more resistant to viscosity
loss than even the best petroleums. A petroleum
20W50 begins as a 20W oil and the oil is
thickened with a polymeric plastic substance which
will thicken the oil at higher temperatures.
Unfortunately, when the oil enters a high shear
stress area such as a bearing, these large polymer
molecules align themselves in order to create the
path of least resistance. As shown in Figure 1, the
apparent viscosity can be much less than the
viscosity listed on the container - typical 20W50s
will actually be similar to an SAE 30 or 40 in the
bearing. The same behavior occurs with all multigrades,
with a petroleum 5W30 shearing down to a
10W or 20W and a synthetic 5W50 shearing
similarly to a petroleum 20W50. No wonder 5W30s
are not recommended for sustained high-speed
driving.
These polymeric thickeners are very large
molecules which will suffer from thermal cracking
when exposed to high temperatures. When these
molecules crack, they reform to create varnish
deposits which can stick rings and plug turbo
passages. For this reason many turbocharged
cars recommend against using wide-range multigrades.
Since Red Line Synthetic Oils satisfy the
high-temperature and low-temperature flow
requirements of a multigrade using only a fraction
of these thickeners, all viscosity grades are
suitable for high temperature and turbo use.

VISCOSITY GRADE SELECTION
The proper viscosity grade to use depends on
many factors such as ambient temperature, miles
on the engine, bearing and piston clearances, and
type of service. A general rule of lubrication is to
use the lowest viscosity possible which will provide
the proper separation of metal. Anything more than
this minimum will increase power loss due to
friction and will reduce the pumpability of the oil at
all temperatures. However, one must consider
synthetics differently when determining viscosity
requirements. At high speeds, a petroleum 5W30
can appear to be a 15W in the bearings due to the
shear stress, yet Red Line 5W30 will actually be an
SAE 30 in the bearings. There is a significant
difference in lubricating an engine with a 30
compared to a 15W. Red Line Synthetic oil will
provide better viscosity protection than the next
higher petroleum viscosity grade. If clearances are
tight and very little lugging occurs, then the 5W30
or 10W30 should be adequate. Less turbo lag will
be noticed with the 5W30. If ambient temperatures
will regularly climb above 100°F, then the 10W40
would provide an additional safety margin. If the
engine is air-cooled, or if the engine is older and
has greater bearing and ring clearances, the
15W50 and 20W50 will develop a thicker oil film. If
very low temperatures occur, the lower viscosity
grades, (5W30, 10W30, or 10W40) will flow better
and lubricate the engine more quickly after start-up.

http://www.redlineoil.com/whitePaper/motoroils.pdf
 
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