Thick Crowd
- Thread starter Taylor
- Start date
- Status
I was part of that mentality, thankfully Bitog saved the day.
20w50 is still really good for air cooled jobs and some other apps, but give time and wear to settle the other issue.
20w50 is still really good for air cooled jobs and some other apps, but give time and wear to settle the other issue.
Here in Trinidad where I'm staying for a while, 20w50 is the order of the day. Next up is SAE 40 and 50. They could really benefit from a decent oil like 10w30, but petroleum is subsidized (and really, really cheap) so no one cares about FE. What about engine protection and power? Well I dont think there is anyone who would convince them otherwise, even though I still see quite a bit of oil burning monsters out there. There are also some really, really old vehicles still on the road, though the oil probably isnt why.
I wouldn't bother talking to the thickheads. They know everything.
You guys are funny. Now tell me what is wrong with a nice 10W30 or 10W40 oil. The lovely XW20's out there a right on the verge of being a 30 weight.
Myself, I think it's funny that people are pouring watery oil in their engines just because it's is the current trendy thing to do.
Myself, I think it's funny that people are pouring watery oil in their engines just because it's is the current trendy thing to do.
Hi,
Taylor - People get hung up on myths and personal opinions that are rarely based on fact. It has been this way for at least the 55 odd years I can recall! Many people believe that they know best and that the engine's Manufacturer didn't really know what they were talking about or that they had ulterior motives
Here in OZ we had a privateer Porsche service provider who used a 25W-50 mineral lubricant in his client's 32V V8 (hydraulic valve actuation) coolant cooled engines. This engine which has a thermostatically controlled oil intercooler NEVER had that viscosity oil specified for it EVER!
The Factory progressively moved to a 5W-40 synthetic lubricant for this engine in all of their Technical Information Service Bulletins during the engine's production cycle
What makes it worse is that some of these cars operated in freezing winter conditions. Even in the summer and in normal operation these engines only have a "normal" engine oil temperature of around 89-97C
He was eventually "sprung" but displayed a substantial amount of mis-information about lubricants in the process. His "excuse" was that somebody said it was a good idea in order to get good oil pressure at a hot idle - I ask you!
Whe I started using 5W-40 synthetic HDEOs in my 500hp Class 8 trucks one of my Senior Drivers threatened to resign as he thought that the oil was "too thin". A million or so trouble-free miles later he was a true convert and promoted the benefits (especially cold start performance) to all who would listen!
IME it is wise to always use lubricants of the type and especially the correct viscosity (for the ambient spread of operation) recommended by the engine's designer/maker!
Taylor - People get hung up on myths and personal opinions that are rarely based on fact. It has been this way for at least the 55 odd years I can recall! Many people believe that they know best and that the engine's Manufacturer didn't really know what they were talking about or that they had ulterior motives
Here in OZ we had a privateer Porsche service provider who used a 25W-50 mineral lubricant in his client's 32V V8 (hydraulic valve actuation) coolant cooled engines. This engine which has a thermostatically controlled oil intercooler NEVER had that viscosity oil specified for it EVER!
The Factory progressively moved to a 5W-40 synthetic lubricant for this engine in all of their Technical Information Service Bulletins during the engine's production cycle
What makes it worse is that some of these cars operated in freezing winter conditions. Even in the summer and in normal operation these engines only have a "normal" engine oil temperature of around 89-97C
He was eventually "sprung" but displayed a substantial amount of mis-information about lubricants in the process. His "excuse" was that somebody said it was a good idea in order to get good oil pressure at a hot idle - I ask you!
Whe I started using 5W-40 synthetic HDEOs in my 500hp Class 8 trucks one of my Senior Drivers threatened to resign as he thought that the oil was "too thin". A million or so trouble-free miles later he was a true convert and promoted the benefits (especially cold start performance) to all who would listen!
IME it is wise to always use lubricants of the type and especially the correct viscosity (for the ambient spread of operation) recommended by the engine's designer/maker!
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Taylor - People get hung up on myths and personal opinions that are rarely based on fact. It has been this way for at least the 55 odd years I can recall! Many people believe that they know best and that the engine's Manufacturer didn't really know what they were talking about or that they had ulterior motives
My Dodge manual states that 10w-30 is the preferred motor oil for my truck. But we all know that a good 15w-40 diesel oil (or 5w-40 synthetic) is the best. You can't even find a diesel 10w-30 oil on teh shelf. I bet some guy just pours in Mobil-1 and calls it good. Don't always trust the manual.
Hi,
Taylor - People get hung up on myths and personal opinions that are rarely based on fact. It has been this way for at least the 55 odd years I can recall! Many people believe that they know best and that the engine's Manufacturer didn't really know what they were talking about or that they had ulterior motives
My Dodge manual states that 10w-30 is the preferred motor oil for my truck. But we all know that a good 15w-40 diesel oil (or 5w-40 synthetic) is the best. You can't even find a diesel 10w-30 oil on teh shelf. I bet some guy just pours in Mobil-1 and calls it good. Don't always trust the manual.
If someone pays for a diesel truck I hope they have the reading comprehension skills while reading the manual that 10w30 Diesel oil is required. .
If a gas truck states OIlsav 5w20 be used then that is what it means. The manufactureers put these specification in the manuals for a reason.
If a gas truck states OIlsav 5w20 be used then that is what it means. The manufactureers put these specification in the manuals for a reason.
Hi,
wcbcruzer - Perhaps this is really relevant then:
" People get hung up on myths and personal opinions that are rarely based on fact."
wcbcruzer - Perhaps this is really relevant then:
" People get hung up on myths and personal opinions that are rarely based on fact."
My 87 bmw is specd 20w50 and it will never see this grade while i own it. its been talked about before, there are more than one reason mfgs recommend grades. some of the same vehciles are specd diff grades and some mfgs change there recommendations. The recommendation for my bmw is over 20 years old, im sorry but oils come a long way in 20 years. I run 0w40, was there even a 0w40 in 1987???? how could they spec such an oil if it didnt exist? i think bmw has better things to do than go back and change all of there recommendations that they made over 20 years ago. Maybe i need to shoot them an email and get a detailed explanation for the recommendation and if they would today still recommend the same grade. I doubt they will even reply!
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I'll swing both ways ..high or low. My sensible recommendation is to not use any heavier oil than you need to ...unless you just want to or see some superior quality to that particular oil and can't find it in a like weight. That would be something like Delvac 1 ..which doesn't come in a 30 grade. Something like that.
When I'm done playing around with 0w-10 oils (if I ever get through playing with 0w-10 oils) ..I'll be using a spec'd 30 grade ..and looking for extended drains ..so HDD it is
When I'm done playing around with 0w-10 oils (if I ever get through playing with 0w-10 oils) ..I'll be using a spec'd 30 grade ..and looking for extended drains ..so HDD it is
Hi,
Taylor - It may be worthwhile e-mailing BMW - it would cost nothing. Most Euro makers issue Service Bulletins covering Approved/recommended lubricants. Most are retrospective for up to 25 years
The major change in lubricant technologies for all Euro vehicle makers came with the formation of ACEA (a co-operative of the Manufacturers) in the early 1990s. Their first Quality Ratings issued in 1996 caused all Euro engine makers to revisit such things as retrospective recommendations
Here in OZ both Castrol and Mobil list either of a 10W-40 or 20W-50 for most Bimmers of the era. Mobil also recommends M1 5W-50
My 2.8 Z3 performed better aurally on Delvac 1 5W-40 than on M1 0W-40
Automotive lubricants have been evolving since the first engine started up. The progressive nature of the Quality Ratings (API and ACEA) has always produced better products. However the viscosity spread or range recommended for any angine family usually remains constant
Taylor - It may be worthwhile e-mailing BMW - it would cost nothing. Most Euro makers issue Service Bulletins covering Approved/recommended lubricants. Most are retrospective for up to 25 years
The major change in lubricant technologies for all Euro vehicle makers came with the formation of ACEA (a co-operative of the Manufacturers) in the early 1990s. Their first Quality Ratings issued in 1996 caused all Euro engine makers to revisit such things as retrospective recommendations
Here in OZ both Castrol and Mobil list either of a 10W-40 or 20W-50 for most Bimmers of the era. Mobil also recommends M1 5W-50
My 2.8 Z3 performed better aurally on Delvac 1 5W-40 than on M1 0W-40
Automotive lubricants have been evolving since the first engine started up. The progressive nature of the Quality Ratings (API and ACEA) has always produced better products. However the viscosity spread or range recommended for any angine family usually remains constant
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Taylor
My 87 bmw is specd 20w50 and it will never see this grade while i own it. its been talked about before, there are more than one reason mfgs recommend grades. some of the same vehciles are specd diff grades and some mfgs change there recommendations. The recommendation for my bmw is over 20 years old, im sorry but oils come a long way in 20 years. I run 0w40, was there even a 0w40 in 1987???? how could they spec such an oil if it didnt exist? i think bmw has better things to do than go back and change all of there recommendations that they made over 20 years ago. Maybe i need to shoot them an email and get a detailed explanation for the recommendation and if they would today still recommend the same grade. I doubt they will even reply!
If 0w/40 didn't exist in 1987 how could BMW engineer an engine to use it? I think you've got it backwards. I run 20w/50 in my BMWs precisely because that's what the owner's manual calls for.
My 87 bmw is specd 20w50 and it will never see this grade while i own it. its been talked about before, there are more than one reason mfgs recommend grades. some of the same vehciles are specd diff grades and some mfgs change there recommendations. The recommendation for my bmw is over 20 years old, im sorry but oils come a long way in 20 years. I run 0w40, was there even a 0w40 in 1987???? how could they spec such an oil if it didnt exist? i think bmw has better things to do than go back and change all of there recommendations that they made over 20 years ago. Maybe i need to shoot them an email and get a detailed explanation for the recommendation and if they would today still recommend the same grade. I doubt they will even reply!
If 0w/40 didn't exist in 1987 how could BMW engineer an engine to use it? I think you've got it backwards. I run 20w/50 in my BMWs precisely because that's what the owner's manual calls for.
Originally Posted By: Ken E.
If 0w/40 didn't exist in 1987 how could BMW engineer an engine to use it? I think you've got it backwards. I run 20w/50 in my BMWs precisely because that's what the owner's manual calls for.
I must i didn't know engineers built engines around oils. I figured they built it and then specified one for it once it was built. due to dimensions clearances etc.
I usually go on mpg's, flow, oil temp vs oil pressure vs oil pump specs. etc and i would also go low before i went high, and i know lower isnt always better. but i like to experiment
If 0w/40 didn't exist in 1987 how could BMW engineer an engine to use it? I think you've got it backwards. I run 20w/50 in my BMWs precisely because that's what the owner's manual calls for.
I must i didn't know engineers built engines around oils. I figured they built it and then specified one for it once it was built. due to dimensions clearances etc.
I usually go on mpg's, flow, oil temp vs oil pressure vs oil pump specs. etc and i would also go low before i went high, and i know lower isnt always better. but i like to experiment
Last edited:
Hi,
Taylor - Ken's comments are correct IME - he talks about engineering an engine for a non existent lubricant!
Most engine manufacturers do indeed engineer engines with a specific viscosity of lubricant in mind - their "key" or basic lubricant. Alternatives are/maybe allowed according to availability, application and etc
This is why it has been "common practice" now over some decades for major engine manufacturers to have Oil Company Engineers resident on their site and assisting in the overall development process. The Porsche Cayenne twin turbo V8 for instance was engineered exclusively for a 0W-40 viscosity. The Brand is irrelevant but M1 0W-40 is used
Taylor - Ken's comments are correct IME - he talks about engineering an engine for a non existent lubricant!
Most engine manufacturers do indeed engineer engines with a specific viscosity of lubricant in mind - their "key" or basic lubricant. Alternatives are/maybe allowed according to availability, application and etc
This is why it has been "common practice" now over some decades for major engine manufacturers to have Oil Company Engineers resident on their site and assisting in the overall development process. The Porsche Cayenne twin turbo V8 for instance was engineered exclusively for a 0W-40 viscosity. The Brand is irrelevant but M1 0W-40 is used
Hello Doug,
I'm not sure what's going on with Mazda. In the US, I believe all new Mazda's carry a 5W-20 specification. But for the very same engine in Europe, the same engine will have a 5W-30 recommendation, in a much cooler climate.
So while they may have a viscosity in mind when designing, they do vary those in different markets with no change in design. I'm referring specifically to the Renesis engine in this example, but I'd be willing to bet with the nearly universal approval of 20 weight oils in the US that the there are the very same engines spec'd with 30 weight oils sold in other countries.
I'm not sure what's going on with Mazda. In the US, I believe all new Mazda's carry a 5W-20 specification. But for the very same engine in Europe, the same engine will have a 5W-30 recommendation, in a much cooler climate.
So while they may have a viscosity in mind when designing, they do vary those in different markets with no change in design. I'm referring specifically to the Renesis engine in this example, but I'd be willing to bet with the nearly universal approval of 20 weight oils in the US that the there are the very same engines spec'd with 30 weight oils sold in other countries.
I don't know if you guys are going to flame every word I say from now on. I have excellent reading comprehension skills. I have spoken to many truckers who say a 15w-40 oil is good for my engine. I don't think I will go out of my way to find 10w-30 diesel oil for my truck just because the manual or some guy on the internet says that.
If you don't understand that, I guess I'm talking to a "thick crowd."
If you don't understand that, I guess I'm talking to a "thick crowd."
Hi,
digitalSniperX1 - That is why I indicated "key or basic" lubricants at the design level, and availability and application as in-service variables
There is really very little difference between the two Mazda viscosity calls noted by you in the Renesis instance. Who knows what their key or basic viscosity was at the design stage
There could be a wide range of in-service issues when say a 25W-60 lubricant is used in this case
A very early example of this was the BMC Mini of 1959! Duckhams developed the 20W-50 lubricant for this engine this was the foundation point for the "collect all" 20W-50 viscosity lubricant. I know by being involved - using the contemporary 10W-30, 20W-30 or even 30-40 viscosity lubricants of the era caused many issues in the field
A later one was a OE engine from Mercedes that had a number of "issues". Again some of these could have been "masked" by upping the allowed viscosity of the lubricant. MB would not allow this and redesigned that engine - I was involved in this process as with the Mini many years earlier
Subaru had problems here in OZ a few years ago when very viscous lubricants were used by Owners "to protect the turbo" in their cars
GM had issues here too that could have been moderated by using a more viscous lubricant than that specified. They chose to rebuild and re-engineer the engine family instead
There are many such stories!
IMHO is is always best to stick with the range of viscosities allowed (according to the operating ambient temps) for a particular engine family. Where a range is allowed I prefer the lowest but always take the minimum HTHS viscosity mandated into account - if there is one
digitalSniperX1 - That is why I indicated "key or basic" lubricants at the design level, and availability and application as in-service variables
There is really very little difference between the two Mazda viscosity calls noted by you in the Renesis instance. Who knows what their key or basic viscosity was at the design stage
There could be a wide range of in-service issues when say a 25W-60 lubricant is used in this case
A very early example of this was the BMC Mini of 1959! Duckhams developed the 20W-50 lubricant for this engine this was the foundation point for the "collect all" 20W-50 viscosity lubricant. I know by being involved - using the contemporary 10W-30, 20W-30 or even 30-40 viscosity lubricants of the era caused many issues in the field
A later one was a OE engine from Mercedes that had a number of "issues". Again some of these could have been "masked" by upping the allowed viscosity of the lubricant. MB would not allow this and redesigned that engine - I was involved in this process as with the Mini many years earlier
Subaru had problems here in OZ a few years ago when very viscous lubricants were used by Owners "to protect the turbo" in their cars
GM had issues here too that could have been moderated by using a more viscous lubricant than that specified. They chose to rebuild and re-engineer the engine family instead
There are many such stories!
IMHO is is always best to stick with the range of viscosities allowed (according to the operating ambient temps) for a particular engine family. Where a range is allowed I prefer the lowest but always take the minimum HTHS viscosity mandated into account - if there is one
Hi,
wcbruzer - Shell make a range of Rotella products in a 10W-30 viscosity- some with CAT and Cummins Approval. So do other Oil Companies
Rudeness does not win many friends on BITOG
A Trucker with many many millions of miles experience and hundreds of UOAs in my own and other's Fleets of Class 8 vehicles and Road Trains - and as a bonus as you say I'm "some guy on the internet...." too
wcbruzer - Shell make a range of Rotella products in a 10W-30 viscosity- some with CAT and Cummins Approval. So do other Oil Companies
Rudeness does not win many friends on BITOG
A Trucker with many many millions of miles experience and hundreds of UOAs in my own and other's Fleets of Class 8 vehicles and Road Trains - and as a bonus as you say I'm "some guy on the internet...." too
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Yes, Doug is about as much of a trucker as any 10x multiples of drivers.
- Status
Similar threads
