The Tesla Effect

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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by BHopkins
there is a glaring contradiction that those pushing for all internal combustion engine vehicles to be replaced with electric cars. There is only enough natural resources on the entire earth, already mined, and that which has not been mined, to produce enough batteries for enough cars to replace 60% of the existing vehicles. That means that the world would have to eliminate 40% of our vehicles to reach the goal of all electric vehicles. And it would also mean that there would have to have 100% recycle of elements from used batteries to continue to produce new batteries. With all these resources consumed for electric batteries to go in cars, we would not have these precious metals available for any of the other uses for them. It would be interesting to hear Elon honestly address this conundrum. But now I'm getting off topic.
Question for you... Are fossil fuels an unlimited resource? The air we breathe? Water?
Yes. They are still being made. The earth is resilient and will provide.
Not if we pollute them. That's the point. Mother earth does not need us; we need her.
I'll throw another log on the fire in your honor. . It's a bit chilly this evening.
 
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Originally Posted by PimTac
I'll throw another log on the fire in your honor. . It's a bit chilly this evening.
"No intelligent would destroy their own environment." Each to their own. I would like to leave this earth cleaner than when I came in.
 
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Originally Posted by mightymousetech
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by ecotourist
I paid about the same for my then 3 year old used BMW 5 series as for my new Honda Accord a few years later. And I bought the 5 series because it was a bargain compared to a used 3 series. So not such a big change in Canada anyway. Both great cars, and neither worth much on the used car market.
U.S. BMW's are optioned much higher than Canadian models. For example, cloth seats and manual climate controls are not available in the US.
As a Canadian BMW Dealer tech.......uh, what?
Canadian market used to sell vehicles optioned with cloth seats and manual climate controls. Apparently things have changed. How long have you been a technician?
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by PimTac
I'll throw another log on the fire in your honor. . It's a bit chilly this evening.
"No intelligent would destroy their own environment." Each to their own. I would like to leave this earth cleaner than when I came in.
We've been over this few time already. Just because you don't see the environmental devastation by strip mining for rare earth metals, doesnt mean it's not happening. But if you only choose to look at tailpipe emissions, which it's exactly what most electric proponents do, then electric car may seem like environmental saviour.
 
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Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by PimTac
I'll throw another log on the fire in your honor. . It's a bit chilly this evening.
"No intelligent would destroy their own environment." Each to their own. I would like to leave this earth cleaner than when I came in.
We've been over this few time already. Just because you don't see the environmental devastation by strip mining for rare earth metals, doesnt mean it's not happening. But if you only choose to look at tailpipe emissions, which it's exactly what most electric proponents do, then electric car may seem like environmental saviour.
NASA on Climate Change
 
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Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by macarose
Hey there. I am Steven Lang. Long time BITOG poster. Part-time data analyst, and hater of all summer lawns that needs mowing. I just released a study on Tesla and their long-term effects on the luxury car market. Tesla's success has destroyed the resale values of millions of luxury vehicles sold by Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and countless others.
Another troll trying to promote lies to pursue an agenda. No, Tesla has no success, they were government subsidized, couldn't turn a profit and have saturated their market and are doomed.
Quote
As a matter of perspective, the average three year old Audi A4, BMW 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class is now less expensive than a brand new base model Toyota Camry. Back in 2016 the difference between those models and the entry level Camry was between $4000 and $6000.
That is only evidence of how fast luxury cars depreciate and how much consumers value a Camry. This was going on before Tesla existed.
Quote
The difference. Two independent variables. The increasing demand of crossovers and SUVs in this space. The popularity of seven year loans, and the rise of the Tesla Model S and Model 3 as sales leaders in the luxury vehicle market.
Nope, nobody in their right mind considers a Tesla a true luxury. It's a geek toy, that you end up wanting to upgrade while true luxury sedans are desirable for 20 years.
Quote
Here's the hard data. A lot of which has not been publicly released until now. It took several months to collect it all and I have plenty that didn't quite make the story so if you're interested, just PM me and I'll be happy to share it.
A contrived study, as if it contradicts the real car market? Fanboy much? No. Tesla should not exist in a free market. It is an abomination that the green movement allowed them to gain traction at taxpayers' expense. If you want an electric car, and are willing to pay for it on your dime, go for it, but don't pretend it's some magical unicorn because it isn't. It's a dirty political ball of nonsense for people who believe in unicorns and are of fairly low intelligence when they try to argue away the downsides because maybe the sky is falling and their luxury car upgrade will save the planet. Never mind that in fact, people who want to save the planet, don't put on enough miles driving to offset the environmental impact of building a new vehicle. It's lies, lies, and blatant lies. Do me a favor and flatten the tires of any tesla you see. They are an abomination to truth and science, but managed to trick so many pseudo-intellectuals who don't have enough of an attention span to understand why their vehicles are nothing good. I am fully in favor of EVs, once we have a better battery breakthrough, that sells itself without subsidies, deceit, and promoting consumer ignorance.
Yet more opinion from you with no data to substantiate your positions. The model 3 is the number 9 selling passenger auto in North America according to goodbadcar - the authority quoted most often by manufacturers. The industry has spoken regarding its position in the market as a luxury car. Your personal opinion regarding its categorization changes nothing. No auto maker would exist without taxpayer subsidy, loans, and or bankruptcy protection. Mazda would be bankrupt without Fords help - who ran to the US gov for a giant loan they still owe on. Telsa is no worse than anyone in this regard, and in that they manufacture in the United States way less evil than those that have run to Mexico. Learn the difference between what the shareholders pay for and what the taxpayers do. This is oft confused here. Promoting and encouraging vandalism is nothing short of high douchebaggery, and suggesting that doing so does you a " favor" says worlds about you. UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by macarose
Hey there. I am Steven Lang. Long time BITOG poster. Part-time data analyst, and hater of all summer lawns that needs mowing. I just released a study on Tesla and their long-term effects on the luxury car market. Tesla's success has destroyed the resale values of millions of luxury vehicles sold by Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and countless others.
Another troll trying to promote lies to pursue an agenda. No, Tesla has no success, they were government subsidized, couldn't turn a profit and have saturated their market and are doomed.
Quote
As a matter of perspective, the average three year old Audi A4, BMW 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class is now less expensive than a brand new base model Toyota Camry. Back in 2016 the difference between those models and the entry level Camry was between $4000 and $6000.
That is only evidence of how fast luxury cars depreciate and how much consumers value a Camry. This was going on before Tesla existed.
Quote
The difference. Two independent variables. The increasing demand of crossovers and SUVs in this space. The popularity of seven year loans, and the rise of the Tesla Model S and Model 3 as sales leaders in the luxury vehicle market.
Nope, nobody in their right mind considers a Tesla a true luxury. It's a geek toy, that you end up wanting to upgrade while true luxury sedans are desirable for 20 years.
Quote
Here's the hard data. A lot of which has not been publicly released until now. It took several months to collect it all and I have plenty that didn't quite make the story so if you're interested, just PM me and I'll be happy to share it.
A contrived study, as if it contradicts the real car market? Fanboy much? No. Tesla should not exist in a free market. It is an abomination that the green movement allowed them to gain traction at taxpayers' expense. If you want an electric car, and are willing to pay for it on your dime, go for it, but don't pretend it's some magical unicorn because it isn't. It's a dirty political ball of nonsense for people who believe in unicorns and are of fairly low intelligence when they try to argue away the downsides because maybe the sky is falling and their luxury car upgrade will save the planet. Never mind that in fact, people who want to save the planet, don't put on enough miles driving to offset the environmental impact of building a new vehicle. It's lies, lies, and blatant lies. Do me a favor and flatten the tires of any tesla you see. They are an abomination to truth and science, but managed to trick so many pseudo-intellectuals who don't have enough of an attention span to understand why their vehicles are nothing good. I am fully in favor of EVs, once we have a better battery breakthrough, that sells itself without subsidies, deceit, and promoting consumer ignorance.
Yet more opinion from you with no data to substantiate your positions. The model 3 is the number 9 selling passenger auto in North America according to goodbadcar - the authority quoted most often by manufacturers. The industry has spoken regarding its position in the market as a luxury car. Your personal opinion regarding its categorization changes nothing. No auto maker would exist without taxpayer subsidy, loans, and or bankruptcy protection. Mazda would be bankrupt without Fords help - who ran to the US gov for a giant loan they still owe on. Telsa is no worse than anyone in this regard, and in that they manufacture in the United States way less evil than those that have run to Mexico. Learn the difference between what the shareholders pay for and what the taxpayers do. This is oft confused here. Promoting and encouraging vandalism is nothing short of high douchebaggery, and suggesting that doing so does you a " favor" says worlds about you. UD
Finance 101. Bankruptcy protection is available to everyone for almost all debts. Last I checked Tesla is the only automaker which essentially survives off customer tax credits. There is no automaker in history that has been given the same free pass on profitability that Tesla has been given. Do you know what would happen to Tesla IP if they went bankrupt? It would go into the trash because it's too expensive.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by PimTac
I'll throw another log on the fire in your honor. . It's a bit chilly this evening.
"No intelligent would destroy their own environment." Each to their own. I would like to leave this earth cleaner than when I came in.
We've been over this few time already. Just because you don't see the environmental devastation by strip mining for rare earth metals, doesnt mean it's not happening. But if you only choose to look at tailpipe emissions, which it's exactly what most electric proponents do, then electric car may seem like environmental saviour.
NASA on Climate Change
As I expected, regurgitation of media peddled agenda is all you can come up with. Do you even understand that there are other environmental impacts besides the green house effect that actually have a real impact on flora and fauna? The impact caused by battery production and processing of raw materials are far more immediate and can contaminate ground water and soil for generations to come. Meanwhile we were supposed to have all ice caps melted by now and coastal cities should be under water due to global warming. So much for that scare.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Finance 101. Bankruptcy protection is available to everyone for almost all debts. Last I checked Tesla is the only automaker which essentially survives off customer tax credits. There is no automaker in history that has been given the same free pass on profitability that Tesla has been given. Do you know what would happen to Tesla IP if they went bankrupt? It would go into the trash because it's too expensive.
" talk about tesla credits and subsidies" - Check again - The only reason ford And Chevy trucks sell like they do is the section 179 high 6K+ GVWV deduction allowing full deduction in the same year as purchase - Teslas take pales comparatively but I dont hear anyone talking about that. Wether a company takes advantage of them is up to their business models. Chevy has taken a lot of the same EV credit for Bolts, as does Hyundai and they aren't even an American manufacturer. Tax credits are available to all who produce cars that qualify not just Tesla and for the same amount. Id argue companies that have gone bankrupt sand handed the taxpayers 100% loss have been given a bigger flyer than Tesla by far. If you bought and held GM you lost all your money. How knows what would happen to teslas IP "If" this or "if" that? According to guys that are smarter than you or me like Sandy Munro - no one can touch Telsas motors efficiency, inverters, and other designs? Why should anyone listen to you or anyone here vs. a guy like Sandy Munro? UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Finance 101. Bankruptcy protection is available to everyone for almost all debts. Last I checked Tesla is the only automaker which essentially survives off customer tax credits. There is no automaker in history that has been given the same free pass on profitability that Tesla has been given. Do you know what would happen to Tesla IP if they went bankrupt? It would go into the trash because it's too expensive.
" talk about tesla credits and subsidies" - Check again - The only reason ford And Chevy trucks sell like they do is the section 179 high 6K+ GVWV deduction allowing full deduction in the same year as purchase - Teslas take pales comparatively but I dont hear anyone talking about that. Wether a company takes advantage of them is up to their business models. Chevy has taken a lot of the same EV credit for Bolts, as does Hyundai and they aren't even an American manufacturer. Tax credits are available to all who produce cars that qualify not just Tesla and for the same amount. Id argue companies that have gone bankrupt sand handed the taxpayers 100% loss have been given a bigger flyer than Tesla by far. If you bought and held GM you lost all your money. How knows what would happen to teslas IP "If" this or "if" that? According to guys that are smarter than you or me like Sandy Munro - no one can touch Telsas motors efficiency, inverters, and other designs? Why should anyone listen to you or anyone here vs. a guy like Sandy Munro? UD
LOL..Says the guy who doesn't understand the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. Nobody gives a [censored] about Tesla technology if it's a money loser...well almost nobody.
 
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Originally Posted by KrisZ
As I expected, regurgitation of media peddled agenda is all you can come up with. Do you even understand that there are other environmental impacts besides the green house effect that actually have a real impact on flora and fauna? The impact caused by battery production and processing of raw materials are far more immediate and can contaminate ground water and soil for generations to come. Meanwhile we were supposed to have all ice caps melted by now and coastal cities should be under water due to global warming. So much for that scare.
The link was to NASA.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Finance 101. Bankruptcy protection is available to everyone for almost all debts. Last I checked Tesla is the only automaker which essentially survives off customer tax credits. There is no automaker in history that has been given the same free pass on profitability that Tesla has been given. Do you know what would happen to Tesla IP if they went bankrupt? It would go into the trash because it's too expensive.
" talk about tesla credits and subsidies" - Check again - The only reason ford And Chevy trucks sell like they do is the section 179 high 6K+ GVWV deduction allowing full deduction in the same year as purchase - Teslas take pales comparatively but I dont hear anyone talking about that. Wether a company takes advantage of them is up to their business models. Chevy has taken a lot of the same EV credit for Bolts, as does Hyundai and they aren't even an American manufacturer. Tax credits are available to all who produce cars that qualify not just Tesla and for the same amount. Id argue companies that have gone bankrupt sand handed the taxpayers 100% loss have been given a bigger flyer than Tesla by far. If you bought and held GM you lost all your money. How knows what would happen to teslas IP "If" this or "if" that? According to guys that are smarter than you or me like Sandy Munro - no one can touch Telsas motors efficiency, inverters, and other designs? Why should anyone listen to you or anyone here vs. a guy like Sandy Munro? UD
LOL..Says the guy who doesn't understand the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. Nobody gives a [censored] about Tesla technology if it's a money loser...well almost nobody.
I certainly do- I never said a tax credit and 179 were the same. However they can both be categorized as subsidies benefiting a manufacturer. Lets add up ALL the subsidies then do a comparison- not just cherry pick a few. It interesting to note that although the tesla tax credit has been cut in half demand did not drop correspondingly so the connection of the two as a survival mechanism doesn't ring true. (remember all the gloom and doom about the tax credit reduction or elimination killing demand -this is yet another busted position) How come you dont add up all the bennies but just pick a few? To do that kills the (subsidized) spin narrative Tesla is different somehow from a government help perspective when the others are actually worse. Every auto manufacturer that can't deliver equivalent KWH per mile travelled cares about what tesla is doing. That's everyone else that makes an EV. UD
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Finance 101. Bankruptcy protection is available to everyone for almost all debts. Last I checked Tesla is the only automaker which essentially survives off customer tax credits. There is no automaker in history that has been given the same free pass on profitability that Tesla has been given. Do you know what would happen to Tesla IP if they went bankrupt? It would go into the trash because it's too expensive.
" talk about tesla credits and subsidies" - Check again - The only reason ford And Chevy trucks sell like they do is the section 179 high 6K+ GVWV deduction allowing full deduction in the same year as purchase - Teslas take pales comparatively but I dont hear anyone talking about that. Wether a company takes advantage of them is up to their business models. Chevy has taken a lot of the same EV credit for Bolts, as does Hyundai and they aren't even an American manufacturer. Tax credits are available to all who produce cars that qualify not just Tesla and for the same amount. Id argue companies that have gone bankrupt sand handed the taxpayers 100% loss have been given a bigger flyer than Tesla by far. If you bought and held GM you lost all your money. How knows what would happen to teslas IP "If" this or "if" that? According to guys that are smarter than you or me like Sandy Munro - no one can touch Telsas motors efficiency, inverters, and other designs? Why should anyone listen to you or anyone here vs. a guy like Sandy Munro? UD
LOL..Says the guy who doesn't understand the difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. Nobody gives a [censored] about Tesla technology if it's a money loser...well almost nobody.
I certainly do- I never said a tax credit and 179 were the same. However they can both be categorized as subsidies benefiting a manufacturer. Lets add up ALL the subsidies then do a comparison- not just cherry pick a few. It interesting to note that although the tesla tax credit has been cut in half demand did not drop correspondingly so the connection of the two as a survival mechanism doesn't ring true. (remember all the gloom and doom about the tax credit reduction or elimination killing demand -this is yet another busted position) How come you dont add up all the bennies but just pick a few? To do that kills the (subsidized) spin narrative Tesla is different somehow from a government help perspective when the others are actually worse. Every auto manufacturer that can't deliver equivalent KWH per mile travelled cares about what tesla is doing. That's everyone else that makes an EV. UD
With all due respect, I think he means that you are a nobody!
 
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Originally Posted by Wolf359
With all due respect, I think he means that you are a nobody!
Who cares what he or I think. There are actual experts more qualified than anyone here to look to and learn from. Sandy Munro > BMWturbodzl
 
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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Wolf359
With all due respect, I think he means that you are a nobody!
Who cares what he or I think. There are actual experts more qualified than anyone here to look to and learn from. Sandy Munro > BMWturbodzl
Yep, there's that too. Earth won't be around forever anyway, I think in 3.5 billion years, the sun's output will be so high that all the oceans will boil off and then once it turns into a red giant, it will exceed the orbit of the earth so it will be gone at that stage. And of course everything is dead at the heat death of the universe.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by KrisZ
As I expected, regurgitation of media peddled agenda is all you can come up with. Do you even understand that there are other environmental impacts besides the green house effect that actually have a real impact on flora and fauna? The impact caused by battery production and processing of raw materials are far more immediate and can contaminate ground water and soil for generations to come. Meanwhile we were supposed to have all ice caps melted by now and coastal cities should be under water due to global warming. So much for that scare.
The link was to NASA.
Yes and so what? Doesn't change the fact that it's being paddled as the only big environmental issue we are having right now and that electric cars will solve this problem. All while conveniently ignoring the immediate environmental issues the battery production will introduce.
 
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Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by KrisZ
As I expected, regurgitation of media peddled agenda is all you can come up with. Do you even understand that there are other environmental impacts besides the green house effect that actually have a real impact on flora and fauna? The impact caused by battery production and processing of raw materials are far more immediate and can contaminate ground water and soil for generations to come. Meanwhile we were supposed to have all ice caps melted by now and coastal cities should be under water due to global warming. So much for that scare.
The link was to NASA.
Yes and so what? Doesn't change the fact that it's being paddled as the only big environmental issue we are having right now and that electric cars will solve this problem. All while conveniently ignoring the immediate environmental issues the battery production will introduce.
Here's what: NASA stands for National Aeronautics and Space Administration. NASA is a U.S. government agency that is responsible for science and technology related to air and space. I am not sure who said it was the only environmental issue or who said EVs will solve the problem. I am not sure who said there was not manufacturing impact to the environment. But your point is a false equivalency: in fact there is environmental impact from all vehicle production, not just EVs. I hope this helps.
 
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The polestar looks interesting, although Im not sure naming a brand after the local gentlemans club "talent" isn't a faux pa I've seen the Japanese do worse. Looks more luxurious than the tesla product. Looks like it delivers the standard -20% efficiency penalty compared to Tesla products. Starts at 59K yikes.... UD
 
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Has anyone compared the actual environmental impact of driving a Tesla 200K miles to driving a Camry 200K miles? Like, from r&d to manufacturing to fuel to repairs to recycling? I suspect the Tesla would be worse.
 
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Originally Posted by dogememe
Has anyone compared the actual environmental impact of driving a Tesla 200K miles to driving a Camry 200K miles? Like, from r&d to manufacturing to fuel to repairs to recycling? I suspect the Tesla would be worse.
The latest studies Ive seen on this show its not - the ICE vehicle is worse over the lifespan. The appears to be that whatever added impact manufacturing the BEV is more than made up in the lifetime of the products consumption of resource. IF one cares bout such things - The BEV is the only one of the two that can become more sustainable over time as the grid makeup shifts. UD
 
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