The Tesla Effect

Ws6

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Luxury cars have more powerful motors. Why? Convenience. Niceness. Whatever. By the same token, to me, not having to stop every few hundred miles for a 30 to 180 minute fuel up at predesginated locations is a luxury, too. PEV just isnt there yet, in MY book. I'm hoping it gets there before my next trade.
 
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Question on the independent variables; specifically the rise in SUV popularity. Most car makers sell SUVs; certainly BMW, MBZ, Lexus. Have lux SUV resale prices (demand) suffered as well?
 
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OP I think you need to dig a little deeper. A couple of things about BMW. #1 They flooded the market with low optioned F3x (3-series) cars. A significant portion of these vehicle were low optioned base 320i's which continued to come off lease in 2016-2018. #2 New 3 series was launched in 2018, consequently BMW had a lot of incentives to move existing inventory. The 320i was phased out. #3 Expansion of the BMW line up. Updated SAV's came on line. There has been tremendous growth in the X3/4/5/6 line ups which would steal some 3-series sedan sales. #4 BMW tightened up on lease rates for the new 3 series vehicles. #5 Toyota update their Camry to reflect something which was more sporty. I'm not saying that Telsa didn't have an impact. Of course they did. A lot of people were interested in the "affordable" Tesla and there of course was going to be tremendous demand because of the alleged affordability as well as the significant tax breaks afforded to early adopters. The reality is that until Tesla has overwhelming benefited from Silicon Valley virtue signaling, letting Tesla skate buy as almost 2 decades of lackluster financials. There's so much "green" money invested in that company that they will not let it fail. Come back and talk about the Tesla effect when they make money quarter after quarter.
 
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Reading the article left me with a few questions, and a lot of uncertainty of the basis. First, the article states "Tesla now gets European vehicles as trade-ins 22.2% of the time—more than double the industry average of 10.9%." Does Tesla take trade-ins? I didn't think they did. They only sell Teslas. They don't sell used cars. And I've never seen used cars on their lots. Even if Tesla does take trade-ins, an apples to apples comparison would be how many European trade-ins for other premium brands, but not to the industry average. I wouldn't ever be trading in my SL550 for a Toyota or Honda. But I may for a Porsche or a Jaguar, or maybe even a Cadillac. I saw no data to support the basis of the article, that Tesla is responsible for a greater decrease in resale of European cars. The examples used to support the claim is a BMW 320 i and a Mercedes B-class. What would have been more telling is if the comparison was done on a few premium European SUV models, such as an Audi Q7 or Porsche Cayenne. We have all seen the effect of the increased popularity of the SUV on the traditional sedans. Ford has all but eliminated cars, only offering the Fusion, Mustang, and Fiesta. Chrysler/Dodge only offer the 300, Charger, and Challenger. Yet the article doesn't touch on the subject of how increased SUV popularity could be decreasing the value of traditional cars. Even Tesla recognizes that sedan sales are tanking. That's why they are pushing so hard to get the Model Y released in early 2020. Regardless, I am totally OK with decreased resale value on European cars. That will be great for a guy like me who can only afford a used European luxury car.
 
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Originally Posted by ecotourist
I paid about the same for my then 3 year old used BMW 5 series as for my new Honda Accord a few years later. And I bought the 5 series because it was a bargain compared to a used 3 series. So not such a big change in Canada anyway. Both great cars, and neither worth much on the used car market.
U.S. BMW's are optioned much higher than Canadian models. For example, cloth seats and manual climate controls are not available in the US.
 
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Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by perfect_oil
Originally Posted by nascarnation
With the crappy paint jobs on these Model 3 Teslas (rust after the first winter season just like a 72 Vega) I can only imagine what price those will be selling for after three years.
I was looking at the paint on the boss's new black Dual Motor Model 3. Stunning paint job. I asked him how much faster it was than his previous Honda Accord Hybrid. He said 50 times faster. "The acceleration will hurt your neck if you're not careful."
The fit and finish on our Model 3 is perfect. The Model 3 is the #1 selling luxury car, perhaps double the #2 car. #1 in owner satisfaction. That's the data.
I suppose, but I find it kind of a stretch to call it a luxury car, doesn't have too many features that a Camry doesn't have. It's priced like a luxury car though. I'd rather get a real luxury car (used E or S class).
Agreed. I was surprised to see the Model 3 categorized as a luxury car. Premium? Sure. But not luxury. It totally lacks the amenities that I would associate with a luxury car. Tesla has started to get exterior fit and finish under control, although I still occasionally read about customers having to send their cars back for a repaint. From what I have read, it is the interior where Tesla still has a long way to go before they can really have a car with the quality that the price should be able to demand.
 
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A few points: Tesla takes trade ins. Tesla does not have car lots. Tesla continues to ramp Model 3 production; they are targeting 10,000 cars per week. Individuals can make up their own mind as to what is a luxury car; the market considers Tesla a luxury car.
 

wdn

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Bernie drives a Tesla so if you're a Bernie bro it's the way to go. So does Larry David. Here in the frozen north though they are few and far between. The 160 mile maximum range in winter comes into play and the corrosion resistance issues, maybe.
 
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Originally Posted by macarose
Hey there. I am Steven Lang. Long time BITOG poster. Part-time data analyst, and hater of all summer lawns that needs mowing. I just released a study on Tesla and their long-term effects on the luxury car market. Tesla's success has destroyed the resale values of millions of luxury vehicles sold by Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and countless others.
Another troll trying to promote lies to pursue an agenda. No, Tesla has no success, they were government subsidized, couldn't turn a profit and have saturated their market and are doomed.
Quote
As a matter of perspective, the average three year old Audi A4, BMW 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class is now less expensive than a brand new base model Toyota Camry. Back in 2016 the difference between those models and the entry level Camry was between $4000 and $6000.
That is only evidence of how fast luxury cars depreciate and how much consumers value a Camry. This was going on before Tesla existed.
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The difference. Two independent variables. The increasing demand of crossovers and SUVs in this space. The popularity of seven year loans, and the rise of the Tesla Model S and Model 3 as sales leaders in the luxury vehicle market.
Nope, nobody in their right mind considers a Tesla a true luxury. It's a geek toy, that you end up wanting to upgrade while true luxury sedans are desirable for 20 years.
Quote
Here's the hard data. A lot of which has not been publicly released until now. It took several months to collect it all and I have plenty that didn't quite make the story so if you're interested, just PM me and I'll be happy to share it.
A contrived study, as if it contradicts the real car market? Fanboy much? No. Tesla should not exist in a free market. It is an abomination that the green movement allowed them to gain traction at taxpayers' expense. If you want an electric car, and are willing to pay for it on your dime, go for it, but don't pretend it's some magical unicorn because it isn't. It's a dirty political ball of nonsense for people who believe in unicorns and are of fairly low intelligence when they try to argue away the downsides because maybe the sky is falling and their luxury car upgrade will save the planet. Never mind that in fact, people who want to save the planet, don't put on enough miles driving to offset the environmental impact of building a new vehicle. It's lies, lies, and blatant lies. Do me a favor and flatten the tires of any tesla you see. They are an abomination to truth and science, but managed to trick so many pseudo-intellectuals who don't have enough of an attention span to understand why their vehicles are nothing good. I am fully in favor of EVs, once we have a better battery breakthrough, that sells itself without subsidies, deceit, and promoting consumer ignorance.
 

Ws6

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Originally Posted by Dave9
Originally Posted by macarose
Hey there. I am Steven Lang. Long time BITOG poster. Part-time data analyst, and hater of all summer lawns that needs mowing. I just released a study on Tesla and their long-term effects on the luxury car market. Tesla's success has destroyed the resale values of millions of luxury vehicles sold by Mercedes-Benz, Audi, BMW, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, and countless others.
Another troll trying to promote lies to pursue an agenda. No, Tesla has no success, they were government subsidized, couldn't turn a profit and have saturated their market and are doomed.
Quote
As a matter of perspective, the average three year old Audi A4, BMW 3-Series and Mercedes C-Class is now less expensive than a brand new base model Toyota Camry. Back in 2016 the difference between those models and the entry level Camry was between $4000 and $6000.
That is only evidence of how fast luxury cars depreciate and how much consumers value a Camry. This was going on before Tesla existed.
Quote
The difference. Two independent variables. The increasing demand of crossovers and SUVs in this space. The popularity of seven year loans, and the rise of the Tesla Model S and Model 3 as sales leaders in the luxury vehicle market.
Nope, nobody in their right mind considers a Tesla a true luxury. It's a geek toy, that you end up wanting to upgrade while true luxury sedans are desirable for 20 years.
Quote
Here's the hard data. A lot of which has not been publicly released until now. It took several months to collect it all and I have plenty that didn't quite make the story so if you're interested, just PM me and I'll be happy to share it.
A contrived study, as if it contradicts the real car market? Fanboy much? No. Tesla should not exist in a free market. It is an abomination that the green movement allowed them to gain traction at taxpayers' expense. If you want an electric car, and are willing to pay for it on your dime, go for it, but don't pretend it's some magical unicorn because it isn't. It's a dirty political ball of nonsense for people who believe in unicorns and are of fairly low intelligence when they try to argue away the downsides because maybe the sky is falling and their luxury car upgrade will save the planet. Never mind that in fact, people who want to save the planet, don't put on enough miles driving to offset the environmental impact of building a new vehicle. It's lies, lies, and blatant lies. Do me a favor and flatten the tires of any tesla you see. They are an abomination to truth and science, but managed to trick so many pseudo-intellectuals who don't have enough of an attention span to understand why their vehicles are nothing good. I am fully in favor of EVs, once we have a better battery breakthrough, that sells itself without subsidies, deceit, and promoting consumer ignorance.
While I'm not a Tesla fan, they offer a unique experience and are practical if you dont drive much.
 
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Originally Posted by Ws6
While I'm not a Tesla fan, they offer a unique experience and are practical if you dont drive much.
My work commute is 65 miles round trip. A Tesla would do me just fine.
 

Ws6

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Originally Posted by perfect_oil
Originally Posted by Ws6
While I'm not a Tesla fan, they offer a unique experience and are practical if you dont drive much.
My work commute is 65 miles round trip. A Tesla would do me just fine.
Well, for you, it might work. You dont seem to drive much, so it probably would be fine.
 
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there is a glaring contradiction that those pushing for all internal combustion engine vehicles to be replaced with electric cars. There is only enough natural resources on the entire earth, already mined, and that which has not been mined, to produce enough batteries for enough cars to replace 60% of the existing vehicles. That means that the world would have to eliminate 40% of our vehicles to reach the goal of all electric vehicles. And it would also mean that there would have to have 100% recycle of elements from used batteries to continue to produce new batteries. With all these resources consumed for electric batteries to go in cars, we would not have these precious metals available for any of the other uses for them. It would be interesting to hear Elon honestly address this conundrum. But now I'm getting off topic.
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by ecotourist
I paid about the same for my then 3 year old used BMW 5 series as for my new Honda Accord a few years later. And I bought the 5 series because it was a bargain compared to a used 3 series. So not such a big change in Canada anyway. Both great cars, and neither worth much on the used car market.
U.S. BMW's are optioned much higher than Canadian models. For example, cloth seats and manual climate controls are not available in the US.
I don't think you can get cloth seats or manual climate controls in a BMW in Canada anymore either. Though you could special order cloth seats 15 or 20 years ago. My 528i is about as fully optioned as they come. As is my Honda Accord for that matter. My BMW isn't a V8 or an M5 but they're in a different price range. The manual transmission probably adds to the value; at least it would on Bring a Trailer.
 
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Originally Posted by BHopkins
there is a glaring contradiction that those pushing for all internal combustion engine vehicles to be replaced with electric cars. There is only enough natural resources on the entire earth, already mined, and that which has not been mined, to produce enough batteries for enough cars to replace 60% of the existing vehicles. That means that the world would have to eliminate 40% of our vehicles to reach the goal of all electric vehicles. And it would also mean that there would have to have 100% recycle of elements from used batteries to continue to produce new batteries. With all these resources consumed for electric batteries to go in cars, we would not have these precious metals available for any of the other uses for them. It would be interesting to hear Elon honestly address this conundrum. But now I'm getting off topic.
Question for you... Are fossil fuels an unlimited resource? The air we breathe? Water?
 
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by ecotourist
I paid about the same for my then 3 year old used BMW 5 series as for my new Honda Accord a few years later. And I bought the 5 series because it was a bargain compared to a used 3 series. So not such a big change in Canada anyway. Both great cars, and neither worth much on the used car market.
U.S. BMW's are optioned much higher than Canadian models. For example, cloth seats and manual climate controls are not available in the US.
As a Canadian BMW Dealer tech.......uh, what?
 
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...
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by BHopkins
there is a glaring contradiction that those pushing for all internal combustion engine vehicles to be replaced with electric cars. There is only enough natural resources on the entire earth, already mined, and that which has not been mined, to produce enough batteries for enough cars to replace 60% of the existing vehicles. That means that the world would have to eliminate 40% of our vehicles to reach the goal of all electric vehicles. And it would also mean that there would have to have 100% recycle of elements from used batteries to continue to produce new batteries. With all these resources consumed for electric batteries to go in cars, we would not have these precious metals available for any of the other uses for them. It would be interesting to hear Elon honestly address this conundrum. But now I'm getting off topic.
Question for you... Are fossil fuels an unlimited resource? The air we breathe? Water?
Yes. They are still being made. The earth is resilient and will provide.
 
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Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by BHopkins
there is a glaring contradiction that those pushing for all internal combustion engine vehicles to be replaced with electric cars. There is only enough natural resources on the entire earth, already mined, and that which has not been mined, to produce enough batteries for enough cars to replace 60% of the existing vehicles. That means that the world would have to eliminate 40% of our vehicles to reach the goal of all electric vehicles. And it would also mean that there would have to have 100% recycle of elements from used batteries to continue to produce new batteries. With all these resources consumed for electric batteries to go in cars, we would not have these precious metals available for any of the other uses for them. It would be interesting to hear Elon honestly address this conundrum. But now I'm getting off topic.
Question for you... Are fossil fuels an unlimited resource? The air we breathe? Water?
Yes. They are still being made. The earth is resilient and will provide.
Not if we pollute them. That's the point. Mother earth does not need us; we need her.
 
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True ^^^^^^ Though the resources for batteries are not easy to find or get too... And use HUGE machinery to get to those resources. Here's an amazingly foolish circumstance I have seen... Cutting down a forest of beautiful trees... For stupid solar panels. I am sorry but that did not have sense to it at all. In my neighborhood we do not have recycling at the curbside... Well my lady and I decided to do it on our own and take it 4 miles to Jolly pond center to do it ourselves. Her and I believe we should be mindful of resources.
 
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Originally Posted by Dave9
No. Tesla should not exist in a free market. It is an abomination that the green movement allowed them to gain traction at taxpayers' expense. If you want an electric car, and are willing to pay for it on your dime, go for it, but don't pretend it's some magical unicorn because it isn't. It's a dirty political ball of nonsense for people who believe in unicorns and are of fairly low intelligence when they try to argue away the downsides because maybe the sky is falling and their luxury car upgrade will save the planet. Never mind that in fact, people who want to save the planet, don't put on enough miles driving to offset the environmental impact of building a new vehicle. It's lies, lies, and blatant lies. Do me a favor and flatten the tires of any tesla you see. They are an abomination to truth and science, but managed to trick so many pseudo-intellectuals who don't have enough of an attention span to understand why their vehicles are nothing good. I am fully in favor of EVs, once we have a better battery breakthrough, that sells itself without subsidies, deceit, and promoting consumer ignorance.
I'm not sure you understand free markets. Uber exists and loses money all the time. If enough people believe in something even if it later crashes like the dot com boom/bust and the housing market boom/bust, then it will exist. Wework shows that the market can sometimes come to its senses. I believe Tesla is down about 40% from its high. The credits are also going away and it was there to boost the EV market. As for the peak battery theory, I think that's probably the same as peak oil.
 
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