The scam continues: Why wind turbines are being re-powered at 10-years

[missingcurlybracket]

Sorry I don't believe anything coming out of China regarding clean energy, or anything else for that matter. They're not our friend! In fact I don't believe what I hear coming out of the US regarding it either. All I know is these wind turbines are not what they're cracked up to be. Texas proved that a couple of years back, and the nightmare to marine life has just begun.

Are you talking about the power outage? I remember the big rush to talk about wind turbines icing and blame whatever is considered "green" by less reputable "news" outlets and whatnot but they both were not expected to generate maximum power given conditions and even taking those lowered expectations into account, they performed above those projections. The biggest chunk of the shortfall was the "conventional" coal/gas/nuclear mix. (yay for the "freedom" grid)

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/texas-power-grid-crumples-under-the-cold/

My questions are whether the costs are more unexpected teething issues or a general flaw like people here are inclined to believe?

Personally I'm happy to see more alternatives being fielded and seeing engineers learn from those overruns - having more mature alternatives available across the board will give us more leeway in the future than sitting on our laurels.

 

[demarpaint]

Are you talking about the power outage? I remember the big rush to talk about wind turbines icing and blame whatever is considered "green" by less reputable "news" outlets and whatnot but they both were not expected to generate maximum power given conditions and even taking those lowered expectations into account, they performed above those projections. The biggest chunk of the shortfall was the "conventional" coal/gas/nuclear mix. (yay for the "freedom" grid)

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/texas-power-grid-crumples-under-the-cold/

My questions are whether the costs are more unexpected teething issues or a general flaw like people here are inclined to believe?

Personally I'm happy to see more alternatives being fielded and seeing engineers learn from those overruns - having more mature alternatives available across the board will give us more leeway in the future than sitting on our laurels.

Frozen wind turbines, problems with navigating in fog, and marine life dying, to name a few of their problems. I ask myself are the turbines worth it? Not to me. They aren't all that efficient either according to a few articles I read. That's the only "green" I'm referring to here.

 

[missingcurlybracket]

Frozen wind turbines, problems with navigating in fog, and marine life dying, to name a few of their problems. I ask myself are the turbines worth it? Not to me. They aren't all that efficient either according to a few articles I read. That's the only "green" I'm referring to here.

So to make sure I follow, you wouldn't mind if these "wind farms" were inland? I've certainly seen them in the middle of Texas.

On a vaguely related note, here's a video primarily about LED traffic lights, but with a note about the potential folly of "but sometimes!"



I mention it as "frozen wind turbines" is a possible scenario but one that can also be planned for whether by expecting lower production or additional winterization efforts. Natural gas infrastructure (from extraction to use at the plant) falling on it's face here in TX during that storm hardly means natural gas has no future. Eggs and baskets and all.

 

[John_Conrad]

Germany is already deep down the path of economic folly dumping money into weather dependent generation sources with massive subsidy which has resulted in skyrocketing levels of energy poverty and a grid that is still filthy. @FishFry was recently noting how many "interventions" they have had to undertake due to supply not matching demand.

Places that have already greened their grids didn't do it with yet-to-be-invented storage technologies or wind and solar, it was done with sources we've been building for more than half a century: nuclear and hydro.

Many of the up-and-coming SMR designs (perfect for many of these emerging economies) are of US origin. The challenge will be competitively pricing and financing them against China who is already pushing export ambitions on this front, as well as India, whose CANDU clone appears to be taking off.

Its all a matter of political will, world demographics and, science. the reality is we can't discount any technology depending on where one lives and what one is able to use. nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, and hopefully fusion.

 

[Revving2Redline]

Regarding global warming all we need is China to get onboard. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them.

Regarding global warming all we need is China to get onboard. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them.

Just put them at the bottom of the queue. Nothing made by them is allowed unless it's life or death. Find enemies of my enemies to do business with. Make alliance in as many ways as possible. Quit telling others how to live and let the green paper do the talking. In a perfect world everyone would get along for awhile. Never lose hope in humanity but don't hold your breath either. All we can do is make our little corner better than we found it.

 

[John_Conrad]

Not sure why we're looking at China and using them as an example to emulate. They absolutely do not care if their own people starve, freeze or just simply die. We have no reliable source of information how their "green" efforts are actually playing out, how stable is their grid and how it affects an average citizen.
I know from history what USSR was capable of doing to impress the West or their dictators, like the White Sea–Baltic Canal that was something like 10 feet deep and cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

All these fantastic plants and solar farms China is building may just be for show and power nothing. Just like their ghost cities.

because the issues are intertwined

 

[Revving2Redline]

Out in Colorado, one of my relatives got a job involved in transferring manure and other things into a fuel source. They go to factories in Austria,France and Germany too. It was way over my head with the discussion so I just acted respectful and tried to make myself look knowing. Walking away I was thinking to myself that I'm glad there are smart people out there trying to do good deeds and works in our world .

 

[demarpaint]

So to make sure I follow, you wouldn't mind if these "wind farms" were inland? I've certainly seen them in the middle of Texas.

On a vaguely related note, here's a video primarily about LED traffic lights, but with a note about the potential folly of "but sometimes!"



I mention it as "frozen wind turbines" is a possible scenario but one that can also be planned for whether by expecting lower production or additional winterization efforts. Natural gas infrastructure (from extraction to use at the plant) falling on it's face here in TX during that storm hardly means natural gas has no future. Eggs and baskets and all.

I didn't say that, I just think there are better choices than those turbines.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I don't disagree, but is it really any different than giving a tax credit to buy an EV to people who would benefit from buying them anyway, or giving, or mortgage interest deductions, or Earned income tax credits, so people who don't actually pay income tax can get money back, or a million other tax incentives?

The only difference is who benefits.

True. The cognitive dissonance of people who complain about high housing prices yet will do almost anything to preserve the mortgage interest deduction.

Another are those who hate zoning restrictions but welcome them when it prevents multi-family units from being built next door to their house.

 

[SC Maintenance]

It is different in the fact that rates are driven up, broadly, which disproportionately impacts low income earners who can least afford it. This is particularly problematic in California for example where rates are now just totally insane.

Your going to need to help me connect the dots. I did read the article. My understanding is the windmills are there, so there being retrofitted so they can produce more energy - but primarily so they can continue to get federal subsidies.

So the utility gets more efficient windmills and the US taxpayer gets hosed, but how does this raise the cost of electricity in California? Or are you just saying windmills are bad - which may also be true - but these already exist so we might as well use them?

 

[OVERKILL]

Your going to need to help me connect the dots. I did read the article. My understanding is the windmills are there, so there being retrofitted so they can produce more energy - but primarily so they can continue to get federal subsidies.

So the utility gets more efficient windmills and the US taxpayer gets hosed, but how does this raise the cost of electricity in California? Or are you just saying windmills are bad - which may also be true - but these already exist so we might as well use them?

I'm saying the overall impact of these sorts of subsidy schemes is ultimately higher rates, which California is good example of.

 

[y_p_w]

I mention it as "frozen wind turbines" is a possible scenario but one that can also be planned for whether by expecting lower production or additional winterization efforts. Natural gas infrastructure (from extraction to use at the plant) falling on it's face here in TX during that storm hardly means natural gas has no future. Eggs and baskets and all.

Many of these technologies and distribution networks can be prepped for winter use, but it's a cost-benefit analysis as to whether or not to do it. I know around here, pretty much nothing is prepped for winter conditions since they're ridiculously rare. I heard of cases of fires caused by burst natural gas lines in the mountainous regions of San Bernardino County that normally get cold, but never as cold as they were the past few months. Certainly the wind turbines in Texas weren't really prepped for winter conditions like they'd do in New England, but I heard they were actually on line at a pretty good clip. What happened to the natural gas distribution infrastructure was that they couldn't get it flowing at all once it hit a certain temperature since it wasn't insulated.

The other issue was that Texas had their own power grid. Turns out going it alone isn't always the best way.

 

[dlundblad]

I’m really surprised the greenies like wind seeing how they kill birds of prey and such.

 

[OVERKILL]

Are you talking about the power outage? I remember the big rush to talk about wind turbines icing and blame whatever is considered "green" by less reputable "news" outlets and whatnot but they both were not expected to generate maximum power given conditions and even taking those lowered expectations into account, they performed above those projections. The biggest chunk of the shortfall was the "conventional" coal/gas/nuclear mix. (yay for the "freedom" grid)

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/texas-power-grid-crumples-under-the-cold/

My questions are whether the costs are more unexpected teething issues or a general flaw like people here are inclined to believe?

Personally I'm happy to see more alternatives being fielded and seeing engineers learn from those overruns - having more mature alternatives available across the board will give us more leeway in the future than sitting on our laurels.

We had an extensive conversation about the Texas Blackout after it happened and there's a whole thread on it. My main contributions to it start here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/this-is-texas-6-f.337646/page-11#post-5680060

BTW, the lowest nuclear dropped was 75% of installed capacity because STP-1 went down briefly due to a sensor line freezing. It was the highest capacity factor source of any of them by a wide margin all through the event.

 

[dnewton3]

Wind energy, Solar energy, Bio fuels; not one of them could come anywhere close to surviving, let along excelling, if they didnt' get massive subsidies. And even together, they cannot put a dent large enough in energy production to satistfy the needs of North America, let alone the massive residual waste issues at disposal time.

When will we wake up and smell the burnt coffee???

 

[OVERKILL]

Many of these technologies and distribution networks can be prepped for winter use, but it's a cost-benefit analysis as to whether or not to do it. I know around here, pretty much . Certainly the wind turbines in Texas weren't really prepped for winter conditions like they'd do in New England, but I heard they were actually on line at a pretty good clip. What happened to the natural gas distribution infrastructure was that they couldn't get it flowing at all once it hit a certain temperature since it wasn't insulated.

The other issue was that Texas had their own power grid. Turns out going it alone isn't always the best way.

You might want to re-read the old thread too, lol. No, they weren't on-line at a pretty good clip, they just weren't expected to contribute much so the primary failing was the gas gen that was supposed to be there instead.

 

[PimTac]

Out in Colorado, one of my relatives got a job involved in transferring manure and other things into a fuel source. They go to factories in Austria,France and Germany too. It was way over my head with the discussion so I just acted respectful and tried to make myself look knowing. Walking away I was thinking to myself that I'm glad there are smart people out there trying to do good deeds and works in our world .

Bartertown?

 

[missingcurlybracket]

We had an extensive conversation about the Texas Blackout after it happened and there's a whole thread on it. My main contributions to it start here:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/this-is-texas-6-f.337646/page-11#post-5680060

BTW, the lowest nuclear dropped was 75% of installed capacity because STP-1 went down briefly due to a sensor line freezing. It was the highest capacity factor source of any of them all through the event.

I see your blurb about wind being unreliable in that post, I don't follow when it's generally understood and compensated for that wind isn't a constant. (Another "but sometimes!" problem.)

I wouldn't blame the electric half of a PHEV for being unable to drive 150 miles on a single charge if the gas engine failed after all.

But given it's largely unique to Texas we're probably splitting hairs over what's more a regulatory problem, I'm being sensitive after that "it's all 'green' energy's fault!" narrative pushed by some outlets at the time.

I’m really surprised the greenies like wind seeing how they kill birds of prey and such.

Any demographic you look at generally isn't going to be a hivemind. I personally believe it's about picking your poison and developing a diverse portfolio (even if uneconomical at first sniff) but whether people will start labeling me a "treehugger" or using my opinions as representative of a group beyond myself is up to them.

 

[dlundblad]

I see your blurb about wind being unreliable in that post, I don't follow when it's generally understood and compensated for that wind isn't a constant. (Another "but sometimes!" problem.)

I wouldn't blame the electric half of a PHEV for being unable to drive 150 miles on a single charge if the gas engine failed after all.

But given it's largely unique to Texas we're probably splitting hairs over what's more a regulatory problem, I'm being sensitive after that "it's all 'green' energy's fault!" narrative pushed by some outlets at the time.


Any demographic you look at generally isn't going to be a hivemind. I personally believe it's about picking your poison and developing a diverse portfolio (even if uneconomical at first sniff) but whether people will start labeling me a "treehugger" or using my opinions as representative of a group beyond myself is up to them.

I’m not sure what you mean.

One would think a greenie wouldn’t want wildlife to be destroyed in the process. Pipelines were said to disrupt the mating cycle of a moose or caribou or something like that. I’m failing to see the difference aside from the obvious being one is oil and the other is renewable. One will get drummed up while the other won’t get any coverage.

 

[LenZee]

Sorry I don't believe anything coming out of China regarding clean energy, or anything else for that matter. They're not our friend! In fact I don't believe what I hear coming out of the US regarding it either. All I know is these wind turbines are not what they're cracked up to be. Texas proved that a couple of years back, and the nightmare to marine life has just begun.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/wind-turbines-texas-power-outages/
"Half of the wind turbines did go offline, but power loss from that source was a mere fraction compared to the losses from natural gas, coal, and nuclear sources."