The reliability hoax...

[TeeDub]

As a serious motorhead and someone who rents cars for business all the time (and drives them very hard), I believe I know why the domestic auto industry is in such sad shape.

The key issue for the domestics (now that reliability has been greatly improved), is simply one of design or lack thereof. The key demographic for cars is the 18-25 year age group. This is where brand loyalties are established and very difficult to break.

The problem with most small to medium sized domestic cars (I'm talking the bread and butter four door sedans and two door coupes), is that they simply aren't much fun to drive. As a general rule, they have vague steering at high speeds, sub-standard bucket seats, poor control layouts, suspensions that allow to much roll/bouncing and engines that sound harsh at high rpms. Most of the manual transmissions in domestic cars are simply a joke and shift very poorly. It is true that the domestics are getting better in some of these areas, but they are shooting at a moving target.

There have been some exceptions to this - but they are few and far between. Of the dozens of cars I've rented over the past 25 years, these few stand out:

1) Olds Intrigue w/ the 3.5L, V-6
2)_Chrysler 300M(FWD) and the new 300 hemi sedan
3) Ford Contour
4) Pontiac G6 - the GT version
5) Cadillac CTS
6) New Ford Mustang


There is no doubt that foreign cars - especially high end European ones - cost far more for normal maintenance than comparable sized domestic vehicles. However this is a moot point for most young professionals and it's why you seldom see them driving their Fathers Oldsmobile....

 

[The Critic]

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Amen. And if you'll look at those 10 year old cars, the domestics outnumber the imports by about 10 to 1. A lot of this has to do with cost of replacement parts, but that too should be a consideration when choosing a car you're planning on keeping for a while.

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Not sure about you region, but I see more 10-15 yr old Toyota/Honda/Lexus/Acura vehicles to from and school on a daily basis than I see any GM, Ford, or DC vehicle. Perhaps it's just the demographics, but I rarely see any domestic passenger sedan in this area that is older than five years old...they just mysteriously disappear.

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That's not true. In Rochester and Buffalo, NY, a 10 year old Cavalier looks better than a 5 year old Lexus. That's a real test of how well a car will hold up to salt as the snow season is very long there.

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There are many, many people on Toyota/Honda forums that I know of who live in those regions and have NO rust issues with their cars. You are surely using every lame example imaginable to back-up your domestic cars fetish, aren't you pal?

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However this is a moot point for most young professionals and it's why you seldom see them driving their Fathers Oldsmobile....

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In addition, depending on your location, domestic cars aren't very fashionable and convey an inferior or "cheap" image. Young people are very image conscious..

P

 

[brianl703]

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There is no doubt that foreign cars - especially high end European ones - cost far more for normal maintenance than comparable sized domestic vehicles.

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That doesn't appear to be true for my Saab 93.

There is no maintenance that it requires that cannot be done either by myself or any independent shop.

The only maintenance requirement it has that is in excess of that specified by other manufacturers is that they want the brake fluid flushed every 4 years. (They also say that the coolant is a lifetime fluid and never needs to be changed--it is Dex-Cool--I find it curious that Saab says Dex-Cool lasts a lifetime and never needs to be changed when the same coolant in any other GM brand is to be changed every 5 years/150K).

Parts costs aren't excessive either--I accidentally smashed the underhood fuse box cover by leaving it in the path of the hood strut when I closed the hood. A new one from an online Saab parts dealer cost $5 and $7 shipping.

 

[ryansride2017]

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[quoteCavaliers are the most rust prone junk I've ever owned. I'm going to try to get another car in a couple years, but never again will I get a throwaway chevy econobox. I'd think about a G6 or a Fusion maybe. Time and (lack of) money will tell.

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That's not true. In Rochester and Buffalo, NY, a 10 year old Cavalier looks better than a 5 year old Lexus. That's a real test of how well a car will hold up to salt as the snow season is very long there. Once again, you get good value by buying American.

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This is why I usually stay far away from the domestic vs. foreign debate. There are a few people on this board that are anti-foreign for one reason or another (and that's o.k.) but I could still have a civil discussion with them and discuss the facts. There are also a few though that are so far out there they are oblivious to the facts or common sense.

 

[brianl703]

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Not sure about you region, but I see more 10-15 yr old Toyota/Honda/Lexus/Acura vehicles to from and school on a daily basis than I see any GM, Ford, or DC vehicle. Perhaps it's just the demographics

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It is the demographics. I notice a major difference in the vehicles on the road in the 50 miles between Fairfax, VA and Fredericksburg, VA. Lots more domestic vehicles in Fredericksburg and they're older too. (Lots more dually pickups too)

You have shops in California that won't even work on domestic vehicles. I've never heard of that around here.

 

[The Critic]

Our local shops don't even stock filters for GM Ecotecs, go figure.

 

[Auto-Union]

I'll come back to what I originally said, reliability is not the problem. Face it, any car dealer service is $75+ an hour. Regular service parts are similar, if not identical between types of cars. (take spark plugs for example, same price for any make) What really matters is the level of service provided during it's service life. Is the car #@$%! or nice, safe or not? Final cndition depends a lot on the owner, I have a cousin-in-law who takes care of his black Sable like a FANATIC- any car he owns is going to be and stay nice. Also, what some people forget about Euro cars is that finding qualified and experienced mechanics is not the same in USA as in ...Europe. I've seen local mechanics do bad things to Euro cars, then claim the car is faulty. I have many examples of this....take my word. Bent/kinked coolant hoses, twisted electrical wires secured with tape and coffee can housings are fine for domestics, that's just not the way to repair a Euro car.

One of the best ways to describe the difference between the two is with this story I dreamed-up.
Take two cars worth $2000 running. One a newer domestic, like a Ciera or Neon or Tempo, the other like a older....Volvo. Say both cars suddenly need a new trans and it costs $2000 -the same the car is worth. What do you do with the Neon? Junk it, it's junk. With the Volvo, I'd be inclined to fix it, regardless of the book value, because it's likely better condition, more life in it, safer, drives better, not out-dated and with better dash controls etc. You'd end up with a $2000 Volvo....that has a new trans...problem? Big difference in those two scenarios.

 

[Auto-Union]

For a laugh, I forgot to mention the heater hose put onto my friend's A4 by the gas station on the corner...a $10 factory hose was called for, they put on a strait hose with a kink in it....best part is it looked like it was cut to length with a blunt rock. Nice. Green coolant too. She paid for Mobil 1 and got sludged too. I guess they swapped-in their bulk oil rather than order her Mobil 1. Typical dumb American mechanic, but the Euro CARS are what is to blame.

 

[brianl703]

I don't think mechanic incompetence is limited to European vehicles!!!!

 

[TeeDub]

I should add that if you look at the JD Powers studies for five year old cars, you start to see a greater difference between the best Japanese vehicles (Toyota/Honda/Subaru) and with the rest of the stuff out there in terms of problem areas. The best domestics nest between the Japanese vehicles and the European vehicles in terms of problem areas...

It is true that domestic parts are cheaper than those for Japanese cars and they are certainly cheaper than those for German cars (I've owned six VW/Audi cars since college). However if you look at the high level of quality of a typical German replacement part, you can see a big reason for this. By contrast some of the domestic parts I've seen look like they are made of potmetal.

Brianl703,

If you keep that SAAB for 200k miles, I think you'll find the electrical system gives you fits and is very expensive to work on. I say this as someone who has loved SAAB's since the old 900 Turbos came out in 1979....

 

[JHZR2]

Auto-Union hit the nail on the head... exactly right.

The differences, if any, are very, very small... Its all perception, knowledge, perceived intelligence, and mainly demographics.

As for teedub's comments... if a saab with 200k will give electrical system fits, what will a VW with 200k give you??? I have multiple friends who own Jettas, and they ALL have electrical gremlins, well under 100k!

JMH

 

[brianl703]

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If you keep that SAAB for 200k miles, I think you'll find the electrical system gives you fits and is very expensive to work on. I say this as someone who has loved SAAB's since the old 900 Turbos came out in 1979....

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The same is allegedly true of Ford vehicles (as far as electrical system reliability, not cost to repair)..but I have not seen it, having a couple that are around 175K right now.

Most of the wiring harnesses in the Saab are made by Delphi. All the underhood wiring harnesses are made of the proper hign-temperature wire. (This was a problem with many European cars, the underhood wiring harnesses would suffer insulation deterioration due to the heat and insulation that couldn't hold up under the heat. Ever bought a light fixture and noticed the disclaimer that it shouldn't be installed in a house built prior to 1985 due to the usage of 60C conductors instead of the 90C conductors standard since then? Same type of problem, with the same result, damaged insulation).

I'm not worried about it being a problem, but if it ever is, I know how to use a DMM and I have the wiring diagram.

 

[cousincletus]

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[quoteCavaliers are the most rust prone junk I've ever owned. I'm going to try to get another car in a couple years, but never again will I get a throwaway chevy econobox. I'd think about a G6 or a Fusion maybe. Time and (lack of) money will tell.

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That's not true. In Rochester and Buffalo, NY, a 10 year old Cavalier looks better than a 5 year old Lexus. That's a real test of how well a car will hold up to salt as the snow season is very long there. Once again, you get good value by buying American.

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This is why I usually stay far away from the domestic vs. foreign debate. There are a few people on this board that are anti-foreign for one reason or another (and that's o.k.) but I could still have a civil discussion with them and discuss the facts. There are also a few though that are so far out there they are oblivious to the facts or common sense.

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I have a lot of personal experience as to what holds up and what does not as I am a truck driver, am on the road every day, and see 10 year old Cavaliers with little or no rust. You, on the other hand, just want to hear what pleases you.

 

[javacontour]

cousincletus,

How do you know that this person only hears what pleases him. Are you in his head?

You made a statement you cannot possibly know for certain as we can only know what is going on in our own heads.

A statement, such as the one you've made seems to indicate that you know better what is going on in the mind of another person that perhaps that person does.

That's an amazing ability, especially over this medium, the internet.
Actually, it makes you appear to be less credible, attacking a person, instead of supporting your argument with facts. Not anecdotes such as what you notice driving the roads of our nation.

Your experience is very real, and I'll not take that away from you.

Your judgment of another persons motives as you've written out here only weakens your case.

 

[JHZR2]

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instead of supporting your argument with facts

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Id love to see that happen in any auto longevity argument... reality is, it does not exist. Facts come in the favor of who is paying for them to be gathered...

Take fullsize pickups for example... somehow Chevy, Dodge, Ford and Toyota all have the most durable, longest lasthing trucks on the road... I wonder how????


JMH

 

[ryansride2017]

Some of my more "favorite" cousincletus-isms:

"Dang, somehow a Toyota recall thread turned into a GM hate thread. The import lovers just can't stand the fact that their precious Toyotas aren't any better than a GM. In fact, they don't seem to hold up as well. They just paid thousands more for them. Haha suckers!"

"No point in even trying to make sense with the likes of ScottB. He'll realize when he loses his job to the foreign competition and then he can pop his zits in the unemployment line."

"Support the country you live in or live in the country you support."

" Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics. Even if you win you're still a 'tard."

Just a few of the good ones to let everyone know the type of person your dealing with. BTW, if one of my boys was physically or mentally handicapped I would have even more of a problem with your last comment. Do you realize that the only reason you are not a "tard" (as you call them) is CHANCE. Getting to the point where I'd appreciate a site moderator to intervene when such statements are made. Sort of goes along with what javacontour is saying.

 

[brianl703]

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"Support the country you live in or live in the country you support."

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In that case I and the rest of the taxpayers around here ought to live in Mexico or El Salvador.

 

[1sttruck]

"Take fullsize pickups for example... somehow Chevy, Dodge, Ford and Toyota all have the most durable, longest lasthing trucks on the road... I wonder how????"

Because most think that most people are simple, or at least clueless. Just star with simple stuff like 'how many million mile XXXX trucks have you heard about ?", and then maybe 'how many 500k mile XXXX trucks have you heard about ?", etc.

Maybe it's because I don't listen for GM or Ford trucks lastine a loooong time, but its' funny how Dodge, with far fewer trucks on the road than GM or Ford, has million mile trucks, and 500k mile aren't uncommon.

 

[Auto-Union]

I should have been more clear in saying that the level of service provided BY the car, not TO the the car, is what should matter to the owners. The level of service provided BY the Cavalier is unacceptable compared to similar-priced cars. fwiw, I hear VW is now using the same wiring harness supplier as Honda and TOYOTA.

 

[cousincletus]

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Some of my more "favorite" cousincletus-isms:

"Dang, somehow a Toyota recall thread turned into a GM hate thread. The import lovers just can't stand the fact that their precious Toyotas aren't any better than a GM. In fact, they don't seem to hold up as well. They just paid thousands more for them. Haha suckers!"

"No point in even trying to make sense with the likes of ScottB. He'll realize when he loses his job to the foreign competition and then he can pop his zits in the unemployment line."

"Support the country you live in or live in the country you support."

" Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics. Even if you win you're still a 'tard."

Just a few of the good ones to let everyone know the type of person your dealing with. BTW, if one of my boys was physically or mentally handicapped I would have even more of a problem with your last comment. Do you realize that the only reason you are not a "tard" (as you call them) is CHANCE. Getting to the point where I'd appreciate a site moderator to intervene when such statements are made. Sort of goes along with what javacontour is saying.

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...and some people can't take a joke. Come on, man, quit yer whining.