"The Real Problem with the American Auto Industry"

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
BMW Proudly built in the USA by robots


Like everyone else, but somebody must service/maintain those robots.

In any case the automobile industry as a whole is in trouble. The writing was on the wall when car loans with terms of over 5 years appeared. The younger buyer of today is more likely to lease and it's one short jump to on-demand rental. BMW for example is market testing a monthly rental program where different tiers give you access to a different array of vehicles. IIRC Hyundai/Kia is toying with the same thing. Subscription services are already becoming the norm with some features.

One other thing are state franchise laws. In the US it's very difficult for a manufacturer to cull the herd of dealerships, never mind that fact that they MUST sell vehicles via dealerships. Now that is 100% Grade A American BS.

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
What always amazed me is how the Americans could design cars using inches. Just recalculating the units back and forth could lead to mistakes, and confusion, and waste of time. Need to have metric and imperial threads, wrenches. Simply amazing.


It's not their fault. They were well on the way to metric conversion when "Uncle Ronnie Reagan" pulled the US off metric conversion as a political ploy to the right-wing base ... I was there when we did all our work in metric, but had to publish in "English" units ... And the real English don't even do that. It's all political garbage

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
What always amazed me is how the Americans could design cars using inches. Just recalculating the units back and forth could lead to mistakes, and confusion, and waste of time. Need to have metric and imperial threads, wrenches. Simply amazing.


It's not their fault. They were well on the way to metric conversion when "Uncle Ronnie Reagan" pulled the US off metric conversion as a political ploy to the right-wing base ... I was there when we did all our work in metric, but had to publish in "English" units ... And the real English don't even do that. It's all political garbage

There's a movement in the UK to jettison metric.

 

[Bluestream]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
What always amazed me is how the Americans could design cars using inches. Just recalculating the units back and forth could lead to mistakes, and confusion, and waste of time. Need to have metric and imperial threads, wrenches. Simply amazing.


It's not their fault. They were well on the way to metric conversion when "Uncle Ronnie Reagan" pulled the US off metric conversion as a political ploy to the right-wing base ... I was there when we did all our work in metric, but had to publish in "English" units ... And the real English don't even do that. It's all political garbage

There's a movement in the UK to jettison metric.

There is always a movement somewhere to do away with something. UK wont be getting rid of the metric system, when they cant survive without exports to Europe.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by fdcg27


I don't find this convincing.
The real issue has long been that foreign competitors produced a more advanced and higher quality product while the Big 3 were always a step back in both.
Playing catchup is never enough and none of these firms had the vision to leapfrog their foreign competitors.
They never did see the changes that were coming commencing in the eighties, when mediocre was no longer good enough.



Agreed, 100%

I know there is no excuse for the poor performance of many American cars. We can place some blame on onerous regulations. From safety rules, to MPG requirements, forcing manufacturers to build a large number of smaller and less capable cars people don't really want. But the reality is that American car manufacturers were lazy and did not set about to produce excellence in any form.

Consider Netflix or the iPhone, nobody has to be bribed or browbeaten into choosing those products. But they also don't have government regulations requiring a half sized, 4 cylinder processor that consume less energy or forcing screen size (cabin size analogy) to be unsuitable for all but the youngest (sharp vision) users.

Years ago, one drive in a Honda Accord kept people out of the Chevy dealership. Nothing has changed. My rental 4 cylinder Impala, while impressively quiet, strains to carry 4 adults and bags up the hills, returns below average MPG and the suspension tops out with a bang on wavy roads. Tell me again why I would purchase one?

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted by Chris B.
It doesn't help that all they make is junk. I have owned over 20 GM vehicles and with the exception of 2 or 3, they were all garbage. I'm on my 1st Honda Accord and it is FAR better built that ANY GM I have owned or driven. I'll buy GM again when they stand on their own 2 feet and produce a quality vehicle.....so in other words, never again.


I don't own any GM products and haven't for quite some time now, but I wouldn't say everything they make is junk. I don't think they've ever produced compacts or sub-compacts that are anywhere close to being as good as the imports, but some of their larger vehicles, trucks, SUVs, and sports/muscle cars are pretty decent. Their pickup trucks are as good as any on the road, and the Corvette has been a world class sports car for a couple of decades now...

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by Cujet
Originally Posted by fdcg27


I don't find this convincing.
The real issue has long been that foreign competitors produced a more advanced and higher quality product while the Big 3 were always a step back in both.
Playing catchup is never enough and none of these firms had the vision to leapfrog their foreign competitors.
They never did see the changes that were coming commencing in the eighties, when mediocre was no longer good enough.



Agreed, 100%

I know there is no excuse for the poor performance of many American cars. We can place some blame on onerous regulations. From safety rules, to MPG requirements, forcing manufacturers to build a large number of smaller and less capable cars people don't really want. But the reality is that American car manufacturers were lazy and did not set about to produce excellence in any form.

Consider Netflix or the iPhone, nobody has to be bribed or browbeaten into choosing those products. But they also don't have government regulations requiring a half sized, 4 cylinder processor that consume less energy or forcing screen size (cabin size analogy) to be unsuitable for all but the youngest (sharp vision) users.

Years ago, one drive in a Honda Accord kept people out of the Chevy dealership. Nothing has changed. My rental 4 cylinder Impala, while impressively quiet, strains to carry 4 adults and bags up the hills, returns below average MPG and the suspension tops out with a bang on wavy roads. Tell me again why I would purchase one?



Every mass manufacturer that sells in the US must meet the same regulations so clearly that's not the issue.

On a side note all manufactures of mid-size/large sedans are facing headwinds to some degree. Honda for example is having difficulty improving volumes on the Accord (built in USA btw). I suspect it has to do with family formation. Young buyers can only afford compact sedans but move to a vehicle with a higher seating position once they marry and anticipate starting a family.

 

[Mr Nice]

Will the UAW eventually kill GM ?

 

[wemay]

Everyone selling cars in the US plays by the same rules... same crash testing, same emissions regulations, same mpg requirements etc. That can hardly be used as any semblance of an excuse. It's all about poor quality and mismanagement. Full Stop

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by grampi
Originally Posted by Chris B.
It doesn't help that all they make is junk. I have owned over 20 GM vehicles and with the exception of 2 or 3, they were all garbage. I'm on my 1st Honda Accord and it is FAR better built that ANY GM I have owned or driven. I'll buy GM again when they stand on their own 2 feet and produce a quality vehicle.....so in other words, never again.


I don't own any GM products and haven't for quite some time now, but I wouldn't say everything they make is junk. I don't think they've ever produced compacts or sub-compacts that are anywhere close to being as good as the imports, but some of their larger vehicles, trucks, SUVs, and sports/muscle cars are pretty decent. Their pickup trucks are as good as any on the road, and the Corvette has been a world class sports car for a couple of decades now...


Agreed, domestic guys still struggle with a compact segment. Ford had the best shot at it with their Focus and Fiesta, buy screwed up big time with that garbage DCT automatic transmission.

 

[CT8]

The major problem is having to pay for the retirement packages of the unionized employees and the management. Just like the unionized government employees and the politicians pay and retirements . They are way higher than the people make that pay for those benefits.

 

[MarkM66]

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
BMW Proudly built in the USA by robots


Not sure how true this is.

Tesla tried this too. Then went back to people.

 

[Rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Cujet

Consider Netflix or the iPhone, nobody has to be bribed or browbeaten into choosing those products. But they also don't have government regulations requiring a half sized, 4 cylinder processor that consume less energy or forcing screen size (cabin size analogy) to be unsuitable for all but the youngest (sharp vision) users.

Nobody has to be bribed to use crack either, products for ones amusement aren't held to the same level of skepticism as an increasingly tool of labor

Many folks hate driving these days as it takes them off the phone which is unfortunate

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by MarkM66
Originally Posted by Rmay635703
BMW Proudly built in the USA by robots


Not sure how true this is.

Tesla tried this too. Then went back to people.




Most modern assembly plants are mostly robots and automation. Tesla is an outlier in this discussion. The fact is a modern assembly plant with robots, humanoids and automation can do the vast majority of the work.

Gone are the days when one guy spent 30 years in a plant screwing on the drivers side headlight.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by Rmay635703
BMW Proudly built in the USA by robots


That works for me!

 

[64bawagon]

Originally Posted by CT8
The major problem is having to pay for the retirement packages of the unionized employees and the management. Just like the unionized government employees and the politicians pay and retirements . They are way higher than the people make that pay for those benefits.


So now that the legacy costs have been reduced and the new employees make about $15 hr with almost no benefits, how much has the price of vehicles dropped ? Toyota has little to no legacy costs, how much cheaper are their vehicles than GM or Fords ? Every last person that I know who worked in the auto industry lost significant amounts of money vs what they were promised, at some point the legacy cost argument falls apart. GM has been a [censored] poorly run company for many many years, I dont see that changing.

 

[javacontour]

Okay, so we don't get road signs and such in metric. If metric is better business, it's not like what Reagan did prevented car makers from converting to metric for the construction of cars.

Not sure one can blame government/politics here.

If it made business sense to convert, wouldn't companies do that to improve the bottom line, regardless what the signs say?

Heck, German plumbing is still in inches, should we blame Reagan for that too?

Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
What always amazed me is how the Americans could design cars using inches. Just recalculating the units back and forth could lead to mistakes, and confusion, and waste of time. Need to have metric and imperial threads, wrenches. Simply amazing.


It's not their fault. They were well on the way to metric conversion when "Uncle Ronnie Reagan" pulled the US off metric conversion as a political ploy to the right-wing base ... I was there when we did all our work in metric, but had to publish in "English" units ... And the real English don't even do that. It's all political garbage

 

[PimTac]

Blaming prior Presidents for not switching to metric is a dead end road. In case you haven't noticed, we have been slowly going in the metric direction. That is, in my opinion a better route than switching over in one fell swoop.

I have standard tools and metric tools.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl


Every mass manufacturer that sells in the US must meet the same regulations so clearly that's not the issue.



Disagree.

American automotive manufacturing was always about making large vehicles. Forcing American companies to build what they have little experience and even less prowess in, is a recipe for failure.

Yet, American companies still make excellent pickup trucks that American drivers want. Best or not, American drivers want F150s, Rams and 1500s.

I know, let's force Boeing to build light aircraft trainers, such as a modern Cessna 152 type aircraft, at a competitive price point. Heck, one single Boeing 10 pound structural part costs more than a Cirrus SR22 turbo. You think they can meet the challenge? I know they can't. Boeing can make something excellent. But they can't make excellent, cheaply.

 

[64bawagon]

Originally Posted by javacontour
Okay, so we don't get road signs and such in metric. If metric is better business, it's not like what Reagan did prevented car makers from converting to metric for the construction of cars.

Not sure one can blame government/politics here.

If it made business sense to convert, wouldn't companies do that to improve the bottom line, regardless what the signs say?

Heck, German plumbing is still in inches, should we blame Reagan for that too?

Originally Posted by BrocLuno
Originally Posted by Ded Mazai
What always amazed me is how the Americans could design cars using inches. Just recalculating the units back and forth could lead to mistakes, and confusion, and waste of time. Need to have metric and imperial threads, wrenches. Simply amazing.


It's not their fault. They were well on the way to metric conversion when "Uncle Ronnie Reagan" pulled the US off metric conversion as a political ploy to the right-wing base ... I was there when we did all our work in metric, but had to publish in "English" units ... And the real English don't even do that. It's all political garbage

In the late 70's through early 80's GM changed a lot of things to Metric simply by changing their blueprints and calling a 1/4-20 screw a 6.35mm diameter and using the hardness scale from metric 8.8, 10.9 etc