The Big 3 business model is broken--see Bill Heard

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Originally Posted By: Gannet167
KingRob, not sure where your figures come from. Best selling car for 2008, the American made Civic: http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/car...elling-Vehicle/


An accuracy point...

He's probably using current numbers. Yours are 6 months old and no longer valid. I posted the current YTD numbers here -

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post1308685

Here's that portion of the post again -

If Forbes can be believed here are the numbers as of the first week of December -

2008 sales (first 11 months):

No. 1 Ford F-Series - 473,933
No. 2 Chevrolet Silverado - 431,725
No. 3 Toyota Camry - 411,342
No. 4 Honda Civic - 352,248
No. 5 Honda Accord - 350,638
No. 6 Toyota Corolla/Matrix - 328,878
No. 7 Nissan Altima - 252,357
No. 8 Chevrolet Impala - 244,692
No. 9 Dodge Ram - 229,222
No. 10 Ford Focus - 184,152

http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/03/best-ca...thisSpeed=30000
 
Fair enough, the numbers for Dec are probably a better total for the year. The top sellers are all quite close though in numbers. Regardless of who shifted into top spot in the final months of 08, 5 of the 10 on the list are "imports" (I think all are made in North America) and they're certainly giving the big 3 a run for their money in sales.

The main point however is regardless of sales numbers, they're not making money. Sell as many cars as you want but if the government has to bail you out, your business doesn't work.
 
The American people have voted for change by not buying American cars. The business model of the Big Three has obviously failed. Deal with it.
Joe
 
Originally Posted By: Gannet167

The main point however is regardless of sales numbers, they're not making money. Sell as many cars as you want but if the government has to bail you out, your business doesn't work.


If this then is the main point, why are you constantly stressing poor quality of American autos? Obviously this is not the case, but for whatever reason you try to stress that

A. No one is buying American cars (false)
B. American cars are sub-par (false)
C. The Japanese make better cars (false)

Obviously "better" is in the eye of the be-owner. But sales figures don't lie, people are buying American. The problem is that the Big Three aren't making money off the sales.

Shoddy business acumen? Obviously.

Shoddy cars? No.
 
I'm certainly no cheerleader for US automakers and I'm strongly against the bailout. But, I just thought a little perspective on what Americans actually buy was in order. To add to that -

Roughly 50% of the vehicles sold in the US are made by the big 3. The remaining 50% are made by the 25 other companies that sell here.

Both Toyota and Nissan have spent $Millions trying to sell 1/2 ton pickups and larger SUV's here with little to show for it.

The import manufacturers main business is smaller vehicles. It stands to reason they'll be better positioned when fuel is expensive.

They'll also suffer when fuel isn't expensive. Note that Prius sales are down 50% making a car that's not profitable for Toyota even less profitable and adding to their losses for 2008.
 
My opinion, which is not an uncommon one, that big 3 cars are in general of lower quality, is offered an a possible explanation for why sales are suffering. Others have different opinions and they're entitled to them - and to buy whatever vehicle they want. The free market is a beautiful thing.

My opinion is based on my personal experiences and those of many friends, and publications like Consumer Reports. I don't appreciate big 3 vehicles because they've cost me a lot of money fixing ridiculous things that I feel were poor engineering and often appeared to be "revenue generators" for the company. I know that there are some great examples of past and present big 3 products, including some that I've owned. But in general, they have really frustrated me and for all my former brand loyalty - betrayed me.

Consumer Reports is not perfect - no statistical study is. But I can't find a more scientifically done analysis of repair frequency and using the principles of statistical sampling and reporting. They are actually doing a fairly good job.

The topic of the tread is the "business model" and while quality is part of the equation, a full business analysis probably would reveal other factors like customer satisfaction, sales practises, financing, marketing strategy, industrial relations, etc. Overall, somehow the big 3 have been unsuccessful.

Failure it innovate, "if it ain't broke..." is probably a big part of the problem. The big 3 are happy to produce the same model of vehicle for 10 or 15 years with only minor improvements. They're known for this. The current round of redesigns and discontinued models have a lot to do with competitors' designs. As an example, Honda schedules redesigns of the award winning Accord every 5 years. Even when it was the top contender in a Car and Driver shoot out - by a long shot - Honda went back to the drawing board the next year and made it even better. They didn't need to, they were the best car in the class in quality, design and performance according to several respected sources - Car and Driver being one.

360 Degree Management and Total Quality Improvement are Japanese management terms that business students in North American universities now study.

The big 3 have been focused on selling some quick-buck low end junk that they make money on repairing, and big guzzlers that they make big profits on selling. The market has changed and quality, refinement seem to outweigh quantity in more and more purchases. The perception of quality allows premium price points on foreign cars and higher resale values. Higher price points mean profits for the business. Not only are big 3 cars facing more competition in the market, they are selling vehicles at lower prices. Yes, lots of sales, but profit?

The new Malibu and Fusion look like decent cars. Time will tell. But they carry the stigma of being produced by the same companies that made Cavaliers, Corsicas, Tempo's and Granada's. Interestingly, VW's actually have some quality problems. People who've owned them (myself included) will often tell you they aren't that good. Consumer Reports agrees. But new VW's sell at a premium and people keep buying them. The perception is that it's a great car. They sell - and sell at high prices.

The bailout is only a good idea in as much as without it the massive layoffs and huge negative macroeconomic effects would hurt the whole North American economy - probably by more that the cost of the bailout. Pragmatically, it makes sense. On a microeconomic level, it doesn't.

Hard economic times are when the weak get weeded out in a free market and in this case it's the big 3. They deserve to die. Probably one or more of them should be taken over by other companies, consolidated, and made more efficient. There's too many companies building too many models in too many factories, trying to sell too many cars to people who can't afford them.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Well it's his OPINION Brian, which coincidentally, I am going to define as inferior. Care to join me?


No answer yet, to my question. I guess he's reading articles and conferring with friends for an answer.
 
Quote:
But they carry the stigma of being produced by the same companies that made Cavaliers, Corsicas, Tempo's and Granada's.


It's funny, you cite Car and Driver as a "respected" source of opinion as well as Consumer Reports. In 1982 Consumer Reports named both the Cavalier and the Granada as two great picks, citing "simple, refined craftsmanship". The September 1977 cover featured a burgundy model Granada on top of a mountain with huge bold print that read FORD BUILDS A SEDAN FOR THE EIGHTIES... AND IT'S GREAT!!!!!!!

Consumer Reports 1981 Car Buyers Guide rates the Granada as a "Best Buy", with excellent performance, style, reliability and price.

The same month Car and Driver reports the Cadillac Cimarron (a rebadged Cavalier) is a "world class Sedan!"

Regarding the Tempo, C&D once again rules favorably for it. "Ford has come along way to earning America's respect back."

CR lists the Corsica as a "Sensible" buy, and gave high marks to the 3.1 equipped sports package.

Conversely, here's how C+D felt about the early Hondas:

"Causes onlookers to chortle".
"It's like being at a greased pig hunt, and you're the pig."
"36 Horsepower is adequate if you're retarded."
"We wanted one in black, but all they offer is white. Oh well, it's not as though you want somebody positively ID'ing the 600 as your own personal property."

The Toyota:

"Clown Cars."
"Barely adequate."
"Less HP than a riding mower."

Nissan:

"The only advantage to buying a Datsun is in it's ruggedness and simplicity. Otherwise, you'd do a lot better buying a Falcon."


You would do better in finding a source to cite that agrees with you. You can't use these two magazines as examples of the higher truth to back up your argument, then turn around and render their previous expert opinion null and void by citing four vehicles as garbage that they rated just as high as the current Imports you're going ga-ga over.
 
Rob, I think applause is in order here
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People cite sources that support their opinions and bias.

They will argue tooth and nail that they have no agenda, all the while poisoning every word from their mouth with that very agenda that is stuck on the end of their tongue.


It was funny that in another thread, there was a response to the citing that truck sales were up. The reply mentioned that American buying habits were absolutely retarded, with gasoline prices as high as they were a few months ago.....

So wait..... Let me see if I am interpreting this correctly:

When gas prices are low, Americans buy trucks and SUV's; primarily from these "sub par" brands of Detroit.

And thus, they are idiots.

When gas prices are HIGH, Americans buy small cars; primarily from the Asian manufacturers.

And thus, this renders them "smart buyers".


So which is it?

Are North Americans idiots, or smart buyers? Because the IQ of the average car buyer doesn't go up when gas prices do........
 
People buy what they want to buy. That's how the market works.

I'm more offended a people telling me what I *HAVE* to purchase or *SHOULD* purchase. I can make my own choices, so can the rest of (north) America on what we want to buy.

The line of thinking that people are 'less' than others 'cuz they buy something one doesn't like is flat out wrong. Sadly, there's too much of that.
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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Rob, I think applause is in order here
grin2.gif



Thanks. I'm a notorious pack rat, so any chance I get to go dig through thirty years of musty magazines is a way for me to justify keeping them around.
LOL.gif
 
One thing that has not been mentioned is the credit cruch effect on car sales. On our local news it was reported that dealerships would have, say, 10 people who WANT to buy a new car but only 3 could get financing. So, with the lack of funds to buy cars, that adds to the problem. And this hurts ALL makers foriegn and domestic.

Sooo, we give 750B to the big banks and no money is freed up and they still increase our interest rates and fees on credit cards and screw us in other ways....wow. Atleast with the big 2.5, you won't be treated like that and will have a tangible item to show for the money.
 
I went for a $500 increase on my Amex just a week or so ago. I collect Air Miles with it and have never been late in the year or so I've been a member. The difference in gross debt was something intangible like 34.1% to 34.2%. I just wanted the increased credit limit to buy a digital SLR setup (at a steal of a price at Henry's): denied. I couldn't believe it. Not two years ago, at half my current salary, I bumped my low-rate Visa (other CC for longer-term spending as I always get 1.9%-for-six-month offers on it) from $4k to $10k like it was nothing, they even said I could go as high as $13k, I simply declined because I had no need for it.

I was planning on re-financing my Yaris (currently 7.9% IIRC) this year, doesn't look like it will happen.

The bankers are laughing right now.
 
I just refinanced my rental property and the bank was being a total pain about it. They called me back no less than three times over the course of 2 months looking for different documentation each time. They even wanted proof of my assets which I didn't need to buy the place 7 years ago, AND it just appraised for over double what I owe on it.
 
The Big 3 Business Model Explained!

[Picture deleted because of profanity]

There... I have summed it all up.
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Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
RE-POST POLICE!!!

Not too accurate, given that Ford hasn't taken any money.

Better put a Caravan in there.


I have done it for fun... I know it's inaccurate... (See bottom it lists all the big 3)
 
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