The Big 3 business model is broken--see Bill Heard
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Gannet, it sounds like you have ALL the answers.
Now of course the fact that the Fusion, F-150, Focus, Mustang have all been getting great reviews means nothing to those deep in the grips of Import Fanboyism.
Consumer Reports; a source YOU cited has the Avalanche in it's "best in class" section.
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
How many Windstar transmissions self destructed into an aluminum milkshake about 1000 miles after the warranty expired? Coincidence???
How many Honda transmissions did the same? A seemingly missing statistic from your (heavily) biased post.....
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
Strangely, the "import" cars have very clean ratings - generally speaking. Compare a Civic's nearly spotless rating to an Escort/ZX3, Cobalt/Cavalier, or Neon. It's like night an day. No wonder the Civic is the best selling car in America. I say "import" because many, if not most "imports" are made in North America, including the Civic.
I'll be the first to admit that the "dealer experience" at a Honda dealer is miles above what you get at a domestic dealer. My old landlord paid 1,000 for front-end work on his Civic, was given a loaner, and it was passed off as being routine maintenance. Had I not pointed out that he had both struts replaced and new ball joints, he would never have actually realized that most of his front suspension was replaced, with substantially less than 100,000Km on the clock.
And this is not an isolated incident. My good friends mother in law has the same year of Civic and had similar repairs done. But Honda was VERY good about it, providing a loaner and not hyping the work being done by saying things like "the front-end is falling out of your car", like you would hear from the service department at your local Ford/GM/Chrysler dealer....
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
Anyone's individual story of how their whole family for the past XX years has blindly only bought brand X and had absolutely nothing but excellent luck with them is pointless. You and you're irrational fundamentalist loyalty is not going to save Ford. It's the whole market which as a whole, has rejected Ford and the others.
So, let me get this straight: Some short-term magazine test hold more merit than 50+ years of experience of long-term use with a brand's vehicles?
Your logic does nothing more than reflect the opinions you wish to convey. You are obviously an Import guy. And seek to justify this (otherwise, why would you go out of your way to keep trying to drum it into our heads that some vehicles from the Japanese manufacturers are assembled in North America using at least partially sourced North America parts) by citing magazine facts and perceived market trends.
Yet Ford sold 2,204,809 vehicles in 2007. As of the end of November, they had sold 1,781,160 vehicles. This is in the US and Canada.
For the month of November, Ford sold more F-150 trucks than Subaru sold vehicles in the entire year.
Now, let me question you on something: You cite magazine sources as "experts". Is this because they write articles that reflect your views and opinions? How much mechanical experience do YOU actually have under your belt? How many vehicles have YOU actually worked on?
How many engines have you had apart? How many engine swaps have you done? How much ACTUAL MECHANICAL EXPERIENCE do YOU have that gives you the EXPERTISE to quantify which vehicles are quality and which are not?
Hopping in a car, driving it around and commenting on what I FEEL are quality traits, or the lack thereof does not qualify me as an expert. Compiling some statistics based on (potentially) jaded consumer perception, again, doesn't make me an expert.
Unless they are engineers that are QUALIFIED the tear down the vehicle, perform testing on the components themselves and evaluate the overall quality, then they are not EXPERTS.
They are JOURNALISTS. With OPINIONS. Just like you and me.
But I can tell you one thing: I've got a LOT more experience with vehicle tear-down than a lot of journalists. There are a few of us on this site who have actually DONE the work. We've seen the stupid designs and we've seen the good ones.
The armchair jockeys basing their opinion on what they've READ or HEARD, rather than what they've DONE or actually WORKED ON really don't know. But you learn to live with that when you are a car enthusiast. Something it sounds like, you know nothing about.
Now of course the fact that the Fusion, F-150, Focus, Mustang have all been getting great reviews means nothing to those deep in the grips of Import Fanboyism.
Consumer Reports; a source YOU cited has the Avalanche in it's "best in class" section.
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
How many Windstar transmissions self destructed into an aluminum milkshake about 1000 miles after the warranty expired? Coincidence???
How many Honda transmissions did the same? A seemingly missing statistic from your (heavily) biased post.....
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
Strangely, the "import" cars have very clean ratings - generally speaking. Compare a Civic's nearly spotless rating to an Escort/ZX3, Cobalt/Cavalier, or Neon. It's like night an day. No wonder the Civic is the best selling car in America. I say "import" because many, if not most "imports" are made in North America, including the Civic.
I'll be the first to admit that the "dealer experience" at a Honda dealer is miles above what you get at a domestic dealer. My old landlord paid 1,000 for front-end work on his Civic, was given a loaner, and it was passed off as being routine maintenance. Had I not pointed out that he had both struts replaced and new ball joints, he would never have actually realized that most of his front suspension was replaced, with substantially less than 100,000Km on the clock.
And this is not an isolated incident. My good friends mother in law has the same year of Civic and had similar repairs done. But Honda was VERY good about it, providing a loaner and not hyping the work being done by saying things like "the front-end is falling out of your car", like you would hear from the service department at your local Ford/GM/Chrysler dealer....
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
Anyone's individual story of how their whole family for the past XX years has blindly only bought brand X and had absolutely nothing but excellent luck with them is pointless. You and you're irrational fundamentalist loyalty is not going to save Ford. It's the whole market which as a whole, has rejected Ford and the others.
So, let me get this straight: Some short-term magazine test hold more merit than 50+ years of experience of long-term use with a brand's vehicles?
Your logic does nothing more than reflect the opinions you wish to convey. You are obviously an Import guy. And seek to justify this (otherwise, why would you go out of your way to keep trying to drum it into our heads that some vehicles from the Japanese manufacturers are assembled in North America using at least partially sourced North America parts) by citing magazine facts and perceived market trends.
Yet Ford sold 2,204,809 vehicles in 2007. As of the end of November, they had sold 1,781,160 vehicles. This is in the US and Canada.
For the month of November, Ford sold more F-150 trucks than Subaru sold vehicles in the entire year.
Now, let me question you on something: You cite magazine sources as "experts". Is this because they write articles that reflect your views and opinions? How much mechanical experience do YOU actually have under your belt? How many vehicles have YOU actually worked on?
How many engines have you had apart? How many engine swaps have you done? How much ACTUAL MECHANICAL EXPERIENCE do YOU have that gives you the EXPERTISE to quantify which vehicles are quality and which are not?
Hopping in a car, driving it around and commenting on what I FEEL are quality traits, or the lack thereof does not qualify me as an expert. Compiling some statistics based on (potentially) jaded consumer perception, again, doesn't make me an expert.
Unless they are engineers that are QUALIFIED the tear down the vehicle, perform testing on the components themselves and evaluate the overall quality, then they are not EXPERTS.
They are JOURNALISTS. With OPINIONS. Just like you and me.
But I can tell you one thing: I've got a LOT more experience with vehicle tear-down than a lot of journalists. There are a few of us on this site who have actually DONE the work. We've seen the stupid designs and we've seen the good ones.
The armchair jockeys basing their opinion on what they've READ or HEARD, rather than what they've DONE or actually WORKED ON really don't know. But you learn to live with that when you are a car enthusiast. Something it sounds like, you know nothing about.
Originally Posted By: heathenbrewing
Then the workers need to understand that if they are building garbage, they need to go on strike and demand to build good designs.
How are the assembly line workers supposed to determine whether or not what they're assembling is "garbage"?
They are not engineers. It is not their job to evaluate the parts they are provided as to their suitability and durability for the purpose, and it is unlikely that they have the technical background to do so.
BTW, I've long thought that many of the problems we are seeing with the domestic auto industry is a result of the [censored]-poor math and science education in this county. You cannot design a reliable product if you have no idea of the underlying principles.
For that matter, it's a little tough to fix the product right the first time, too.
Then the workers need to understand that if they are building garbage, they need to go on strike and demand to build good designs.
How are the assembly line workers supposed to determine whether or not what they're assembling is "garbage"?
They are not engineers. It is not their job to evaluate the parts they are provided as to their suitability and durability for the purpose, and it is unlikely that they have the technical background to do so.
BTW, I've long thought that many of the problems we are seeing with the domestic auto industry is a result of the [censored]-poor math and science education in this county. You cannot design a reliable product if you have no idea of the underlying principles.
For that matter, it's a little tough to fix the product right the first time, too.
Ya Overk1ll, I guess we agree to disagree. I like many new American cars, I have even owned quite a few of them and worked for several years at a big 3 dealership. I've pulled many motors, and have skinned knuckles enough to understand how cars work. I am not biased toward imports- I'm biased toward good cars. You're clearly showing your bias as well. You appear to be a Ford lover and not much I say will change that. Good for you. Someone has to buy those vehicles and support the economy. I just got tired of laying under my family's Fords turning wrenches.
Biases aside, I hate my taxes going to bail out a business that is failing, because the businesses are basically bad at what they are doing: making money.
Sure Ford may have sold a lot of trucks, (a fact always clouded by the fact that GMC and Chev trucks together far outsell Fords, but whatever) but at the end of the day, Ford is in a financial crisis. They could sell a billion trucks, if they're not running a viable business it doesn't matter much. Maybe they should copy some of Subaru's practises, I don't see Subaru looking at "controlled bankruptcy."
Compiled statistics have a lot of merit. You need to study stats and marketing to understand how the math of a small sample size can be very, very accurate, but it is. Even if it's biased - it's a source that many people look to when they buy. For some reason big 3 products seem to consistently have quality control issues. Some are great, others are terrible. But overall there is a trend. Even if they're on par now, the sins of the past have degraded the brand equity of Ford, Chev and Chrysler products enough to scare away sales.
If the big 3 build the best vehicles in the world - would we be in this mess? Would a Japanese car be the best selling car in America and Canada? Coincidence?
Love or hate the products the big 3 make, (and as I said, I like some of them) you can't deny that they are a failure in business practises. We can argue about who's car is better and for what reasons, but the fact remains that these companies failed at a time when they should have succeeded like crazy. I can't see them do that well now, that the economy is bad - particularly if they couldn't hack it when it was good.
Be careful how you judge armchair jockeys - they are the people buying cars. Their "mis-informed" views count big time. If they perceive that big 3 cars are bad products, then they don't buy them. It think a lot of the perceptions about the big 3 are undeserved - but a lot of them have merit.
If the guys at Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Road and Track etc, compare a group of cars and (typically) rate the domestic product at the bottom of the group - I tend to believe their opinion. Many of them are trained engineers. Perhaps we agree because we value similar things.
Anyway, all this ranting and explaining what is the simple fact: the competitive market is a competition and the big 3 have finished last. The marketplace kicked their buts. Make excuses all you want, as businesses they are [censored]. I would fire them if they worked for me. I would promote the managers at other import companies that are taking over the market.
Sadly, people's livelihoods are on the line and are far more important than our petty differences about who makes a better mousetrap. It's unfortunate. I don't see these billions making me, or anyone else go out and buy a new car. If I did, it would probably be made in North America, but not wearing a big 3 badge.
Biases aside, I hate my taxes going to bail out a business that is failing, because the businesses are basically bad at what they are doing: making money.
Sure Ford may have sold a lot of trucks, (a fact always clouded by the fact that GMC and Chev trucks together far outsell Fords, but whatever) but at the end of the day, Ford is in a financial crisis. They could sell a billion trucks, if they're not running a viable business it doesn't matter much. Maybe they should copy some of Subaru's practises, I don't see Subaru looking at "controlled bankruptcy."
Compiled statistics have a lot of merit. You need to study stats and marketing to understand how the math of a small sample size can be very, very accurate, but it is. Even if it's biased - it's a source that many people look to when they buy. For some reason big 3 products seem to consistently have quality control issues. Some are great, others are terrible. But overall there is a trend. Even if they're on par now, the sins of the past have degraded the brand equity of Ford, Chev and Chrysler products enough to scare away sales.
If the big 3 build the best vehicles in the world - would we be in this mess? Would a Japanese car be the best selling car in America and Canada? Coincidence?
Love or hate the products the big 3 make, (and as I said, I like some of them) you can't deny that they are a failure in business practises. We can argue about who's car is better and for what reasons, but the fact remains that these companies failed at a time when they should have succeeded like crazy. I can't see them do that well now, that the economy is bad - particularly if they couldn't hack it when it was good.
Be careful how you judge armchair jockeys - they are the people buying cars. Their "mis-informed" views count big time. If they perceive that big 3 cars are bad products, then they don't buy them. It think a lot of the perceptions about the big 3 are undeserved - but a lot of them have merit.
If the guys at Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Road and Track etc, compare a group of cars and (typically) rate the domestic product at the bottom of the group - I tend to believe their opinion. Many of them are trained engineers. Perhaps we agree because we value similar things.
Anyway, all this ranting and explaining what is the simple fact: the competitive market is a competition and the big 3 have finished last. The marketplace kicked their buts. Make excuses all you want, as businesses they are [censored]. I would fire them if they worked for me. I would promote the managers at other import companies that are taking over the market.
Sadly, people's livelihoods are on the line and are far more important than our petty differences about who makes a better mousetrap. It's unfortunate. I don't see these billions making me, or anyone else go out and buy a new car. If I did, it would probably be made in North America, but not wearing a big 3 badge.
Quote:
If the guys at Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Road and Track etc, compare a group of cars and (typically) rate the domestic product at the bottom of the group - I tend to believe their opinion. Many of them are trained engineers.
Are they? Journalism and engineering are two professions that rarely cross paths.
If the guys at Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Road and Track etc, compare a group of cars and (typically) rate the domestic product at the bottom of the group - I tend to believe their opinion. Many of them are trained engineers.
Are they? Journalism and engineering are two professions that rarely cross paths.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: heathenbrewing
Then the workers need to understand that if they are building garbage, they need to go on strike and demand to build good designs.
How are the assembly line workers supposed to determine whether or not what they're assembling is "garbage"?
They are not engineers. It is not their job to evaluate the parts they are provided as to their suitability and durability for the purpose, and it is unlikely that they have the technical background to do so.
BTW, I've long thought that many of the problems we are seeing with the domestic auto industry is a result of the [censored]-poor math and science education in this county. You cannot design a reliable product if you have no idea of the underlying principles.
For that matter, it's a little tough to fix the product right the first time, too.
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
Originally Posted By: heathenbrewing
Then the workers need to understand that if they are building garbage, they need to go on strike and demand to build good designs.
How are the assembly line workers supposed to determine whether or not what they're assembling is "garbage"?
They are not engineers. It is not their job to evaluate the parts they are provided as to their suitability and durability for the purpose, and it is unlikely that they have the technical background to do so.
BTW, I've long thought that many of the problems we are seeing with the domestic auto industry is a result of the [censored]-poor math and science education in this county. You cannot design a reliable product if you have no idea of the underlying principles.
For that matter, it's a little tough to fix the product right the first time, too.
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
Quote:
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
So that makes you an expert?
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
So that makes you an expert?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Quote:
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
So that makes you an expert?
He probably slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
Quote:
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
So that makes you an expert?
He probably slept at a Holiday Inn last night.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Quote:
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
So that makes you an expert?
Is that the take away message you got?
No, I am not an expert. You dont need to be an expert in any field (except maybe common sense) to know that most of the big 3s cars are inferior.
Quote:
I dont work on an assembly line, nor am I an engineer. But I do know (through countless articles, disscussions with friends, etc.) that The big 3 produce more garbage vechicles than good vechicles.
So that makes you an expert?
Is that the take away message you got?
No, I am not an expert. You dont need to be an expert in any field (except maybe common sense) to know that most of the big 3s cars are inferior.
Most of them are inferior? Ok, which ones are not?
I'm curious to know what you define as "inferior" and why.
I'm curious to know what you define as "inferior" and why.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Most of them are inferior? Ok, which ones are not?
I'm curious to know what you define as "inferior" and why.
Well it's his OPINION Brian, which coincidentally, I am going to define as inferior. Care to join me?
Most of them are inferior? Ok, which ones are not?
I'm curious to know what you define as "inferior" and why.
Well it's his OPINION Brian, which coincidentally, I am going to define as inferior. Care to join me?
You know what they say about opinions and buttholes.
heathen, you're digging a hole for yourself that's fun to watch you try to get out of!
It's funny how a discussion about consumer products quickly degrades into a religious debate about brand loyalty. It's hilarious how offended people get when you express that you do not care for the brand of car that they drive. Even when you have a valid point.
Again, at the end of the day something went wrong - like the big 3 have missed the boat on the market. And now they need a life saver thrown to them to save their lives. While they were busy making big margins on Ford Excretions and Tahoes, the Prius got a lot better, the 3 series won another round of every single automotive journalists awards for being the best thing on 4 wheels, and Honda and Toyota topped sales charts.
A friend of mine's parents own a Chev dealership. He told me that the profit the dealer makes on an SUV, like a Suburban is around $15,000 after the negotiations. A Cavalier (or Cobalt now) is next to nothing, around $500. But the money is made on repairs and parts. Great business model fellas. In fairness, at the same time they have one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any dealership in that part of the country.
If it weren't for the fact that so many people could lose their jobs, and all the negative spin off economic consequences of that loss of industry, I would welcome some consolidation in the industry. Honestly, there's probably too many firms trying to compete in the market for it to be profitable and efficient.
Personally, it offends me that I pay big taxes that are being sent to these failed businesses. After the economic prosperity that we've come through for the past decade, there's no reason that GM and Ford aren't taking over Nissan and Honda. No reason except incompetence.
Again, at the end of the day something went wrong - like the big 3 have missed the boat on the market. And now they need a life saver thrown to them to save their lives. While they were busy making big margins on Ford Excretions and Tahoes, the Prius got a lot better, the 3 series won another round of every single automotive journalists awards for being the best thing on 4 wheels, and Honda and Toyota topped sales charts.
A friend of mine's parents own a Chev dealership. He told me that the profit the dealer makes on an SUV, like a Suburban is around $15,000 after the negotiations. A Cavalier (or Cobalt now) is next to nothing, around $500. But the money is made on repairs and parts. Great business model fellas. In fairness, at the same time they have one of the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any dealership in that part of the country.
If it weren't for the fact that so many people could lose their jobs, and all the negative spin off economic consequences of that loss of industry, I would welcome some consolidation in the industry. Honestly, there's probably too many firms trying to compete in the market for it to be profitable and efficient.
Personally, it offends me that I pay big taxes that are being sent to these failed businesses. After the economic prosperity that we've come through for the past decade, there's no reason that GM and Ford aren't taking over Nissan and Honda. No reason except incompetence.
Quote:
Honda and Toyota topped sales charts.
After Ford.
Or, are we talking worldwide? That would be GM that tops the sales charts.
Your "friend" owns a Chevy dealership. Your "friend" owns a Mustang. What Domestic vehicles do you own that qualifies you to comment on the quality of them?
Quote:
Personally, it offends me that I pay big taxes that are being sent to these failed businesses.
Personally it offends me that I pay taxes that go to welfare recipients that take the money and turn around and buy a cheap Import. Cry me a river. As a Canadian, you should be more concerned about the other places your tax money goes.
Honda and Toyota topped sales charts.
After Ford.
Or, are we talking worldwide? That would be GM that tops the sales charts.
Your "friend" owns a Chevy dealership. Your "friend" owns a Mustang. What Domestic vehicles do you own that qualifies you to comment on the quality of them?
Quote:
Personally, it offends me that I pay big taxes that are being sent to these failed businesses.
Personally it offends me that I pay taxes that go to welfare recipients that take the money and turn around and buy a cheap Import. Cry me a river. As a Canadian, you should be more concerned about the other places your tax money goes.
Originally Posted By: Gannet167
But the money is made on repairs and parts. Great business model fellas.
GM's parts prices are usually pretty reasonable..even for Saab vehicles. A keyfob transmitter for my Saab was about $45 as I recall, and a replacement underhood fuse panel cover was $7. (I accidentally left the fuse panel cover in the path of the hood strut as I closed the hood, which busted it clean in half).
But the money is made on repairs and parts. Great business model fellas.
GM's parts prices are usually pretty reasonable..even for Saab vehicles. A keyfob transmitter for my Saab was about $45 as I recall, and a replacement underhood fuse panel cover was $7. (I accidentally left the fuse panel cover in the path of the hood strut as I closed the hood, which busted it clean in half).
Originally Posted By: lovcom
True, but you have to also blame the consumers that continue to buy domestic [censored], year after year, even after reading many bad reviews, and MANY issues ConsumerReports and many other organizations have had with domestic cars. I find it most peculiar that many American's over the decades continue to enable the big three even as hey continue to build [censored].
Amazing!
Originally Posted By: lovcom
My 2003 Ford Expedition was [censored]...back to the dealer for fixes 5 times before 19,000 miles, and it needed the drive shaft replaced, and the auto-tranny too!
My 2006 Ford Mustang had to go back for fixing 8 times before reaching 26,000 miles!
So, according to you, I have to blame, well, people like you, since you bought domestic [censored], even after decades of them building [censored]? You said you can't imagine why anyone would still buy their products after decades of poor quality, yet you DID buy their products! So, why don't your answer your own question and tell us why you bought not one, but two vehicles from such a "cr@ppy" manufacturer?
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Of the 5+ Hondas and Toyotas I've had in my life NONE had any problem before 150,000 miles.
And the Fords my friends and family have had haven't had any problems for hundreds of thousands of miles either. Some of the Hondas we've had have not been trouble free.
So you're whole philosophy of "a few cars from Brand A have been [censored] so therefore ALL cars from Brand A are [censored], and a few cars from Brand B are good, so all cars from Brand B are good" is bull****.
Pick a manufacturer, ANY manufacturer, and there will be tons of people who have excellent experiences with them. There will be just as many who have had bad experiences with them.
Originally Posted By: lovcom
It is UN-American to make crud products, and it is UN-American to buy crud products. It is UN-American to bailt out crud companies.
Therefore the most patriotic true Americans will not buy domestic cars UNTIL they start building high quality products.
I never mentioned anything about being patriotic/un-American.
True, but you have to also blame the consumers that continue to buy domestic [censored], year after year, even after reading many bad reviews, and MANY issues ConsumerReports and many other organizations have had with domestic cars. I find it most peculiar that many American's over the decades continue to enable the big three even as hey continue to build [censored].
Amazing!
Originally Posted By: lovcom
My 2003 Ford Expedition was [censored]...back to the dealer for fixes 5 times before 19,000 miles, and it needed the drive shaft replaced, and the auto-tranny too!
My 2006 Ford Mustang had to go back for fixing 8 times before reaching 26,000 miles!
So, according to you, I have to blame, well, people like you, since you bought domestic [censored], even after decades of them building [censored]? You said you can't imagine why anyone would still buy their products after decades of poor quality, yet you DID buy their products! So, why don't your answer your own question and tell us why you bought not one, but two vehicles from such a "cr@ppy" manufacturer?
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Of the 5+ Hondas and Toyotas I've had in my life NONE had any problem before 150,000 miles.
And the Fords my friends and family have had haven't had any problems for hundreds of thousands of miles either. Some of the Hondas we've had have not been trouble free.
Pick a manufacturer, ANY manufacturer, and there will be tons of people who have excellent experiences with them. There will be just as many who have had bad experiences with them.
Originally Posted By: lovcom
It is UN-American to make crud products, and it is UN-American to buy crud products. It is UN-American to bailt out crud companies.
Therefore the most patriotic true Americans will not buy domestic cars UNTIL they start building high quality products.
I never mentioned anything about being patriotic/un-American.
KingRob, not sure where your figures come from. Best selling car for 2008, the American made Civic: http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/car...elling-Vehicle/
It also says the Camry, Corolla and Accord surpassed the next top seller, the F Series.
Another interesting article about the Camry being the best selling car for 4 years in a row, dated 2006:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/06/206830.html
Anyway, if big 3 sales are so great, why are they losing money? What's the problem guys? Why no profit? Can you offer an explanation besides blind brand loyalty? Seriously - investors lost a lot of money - can you give them an explanation besides talking about how you love your Ford? Regardless of what you think about cars, I would WAY rather own foreign shares than big 3 shares.
I thought we were talking about the big 3 business model - not politics. My taxes are bailing out the part of the auto sector with American firms. Otherwise my taxes are quite well spent, thank you. I'll compare my economic strength, financial system, standard of living, number of mortgage foreclosures, crime rate and quality of life to just about anyone's. Anyway, back to big 3 business models.
It also says the Camry, Corolla and Accord surpassed the next top seller, the F Series.
Another interesting article about the Camry being the best selling car for 4 years in a row, dated 2006:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/01/06/206830.html
Anyway, if big 3 sales are so great, why are they losing money? What's the problem guys? Why no profit? Can you offer an explanation besides blind brand loyalty? Seriously - investors lost a lot of money - can you give them an explanation besides talking about how you love your Ford? Regardless of what you think about cars, I would WAY rather own foreign shares than big 3 shares.
I thought we were talking about the big 3 business model - not politics. My taxes are bailing out the part of the auto sector with American firms. Otherwise my taxes are quite well spent, thank you. I'll compare my economic strength, financial system, standard of living, number of mortgage foreclosures, crime rate and quality of life to just about anyone's. Anyway, back to big 3 business models.
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Quote:
If the guys at Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Road and Track etc, compare a group of cars and (typically) rate the domestic product at the bottom of the group - I tend to believe their opinion. Many of them are trained engineers.
Are they? Journalism and engineering are two professions that rarely cross paths.
Speaking of Car and Driver, the chief editor of many years, Csaba Csere, is an engineer by training. Most of the staff at C&D are engineers. I've been a subscriber for 20 years, and I believe they are a notch above the others.
Despite being engineers, there is a lot of great humor in the magazine. They are also the ones that referred to the Camry as "Boring as applesauce." ;-)
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If the guys at Car and Driver, MotorTrend, Road and Track etc, compare a group of cars and (typically) rate the domestic product at the bottom of the group - I tend to believe their opinion. Many of them are trained engineers.
Are they? Journalism and engineering are two professions that rarely cross paths.
Speaking of Car and Driver, the chief editor of many years, Csaba Csere, is an engineer by training. Most of the staff at C&D are engineers. I've been a subscriber for 20 years, and I believe they are a notch above the others.
Despite being engineers, there is a lot of great humor in the magazine. They are also the ones that referred to the Camry as "Boring as applesauce." ;-)
I don't know if it is still true, but about 10 years ago most of those guys were on the payroll of the Japanese companies as ''consultants''. A story the MSM buried.
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