Test Idea To Determine If Filters Bypass During Normal Operation

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quote:

Originally posted by Ugly3:
Most automotive oil pumps put out between 3 and 5 gallons per minute. Oil filters are rated to have a pressure differential of .3# at 3 gallons per minute flow.

You have any references to support your claim?


quote:


It is highly unlikely that the bypass will be in effct during normal driving. Maybe some when the engine is cold but other than that it is almost a moot point.
How do you define "normal driving"? If one does mostly short trips in winter weather you can bet that a significant part of this "normal operation" is with the oil below full operating temperature. And what about filters that have a significant amount of miles on them?
 
Thanks for all the replies
I think this test will probably give some valuable info but it likely won't be real accurate. The way I see it the spring should start to move at 8psi and finish at 11psi if that is the specs. So if we see numbers in that range we know there is some bypassing. The other theory is that the 8-11psi is a manufacturing tolerances for the spring to be fully compressed or maybe just starting to move. Anyone got any info on what these specs really mean? Filterguy?

leanintoit, I think these bypasses do seal well. The one on an FL1A has a rubber seal that looks like a 1 1/2" flat washer with a 3/4" hole in it. From the looks of it I'd say it would seal well as long as there is enough spring pressure. No tellin on a fram or other cheapos.

GaryAllen, thanks for all the part #s and specs. Where are you all getting these filter specs? Online? Also does anyone know of any filters with the 3/4-16 thread that don't have any bypass? I know some of the AC chevy filters don't have bypasses but they are all the wrong thread. I guess I could buy a second remote mount, they're only $12.

427Z06, I will test a new filter and with some miles on it but not 6K. This truck('69 bronco)is only a weekend warrior so it onlys see 2-4k a year unless I take a trip down the baja or several to moab. Also the pressure release in the pump in this motor starts to open at 90psi. So the it's only bouncing off the release when its pretty cold and over 3000rpm which I don't do if I can help it. This is on 10w40.

It seems that the argument goes on here as to will it or won't it. This is the reason I want to does this test. I get tired of people telling me that money spent on high dollar filters is wasted because they bypass all the time anyway. I hope the enginerds that designed the FF system were smarter than that. If FF filters bypass all the time, then why not just run a bypass filter that filters to less microns like they did in the '50s? Hopefully I can get some results that puts this to rest. Plus I can have that warm fuzzy feeling that my engine is getting filtered oil as I'm driving around.
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I think I will use two 2 5/8" mechanical autometer gauges because I have to buy one for another truck anyway. This way I will only spend $40 on gauges directly for the test. The remote mount and some of the plumbing I already have because I am planning on putting an oilcooler on for next summer. I will run the tests before I put the cooler on though. I also already have a mechanical gauge in the dash for a third. So the only extra parts I would have to buy is some fittings and such.

The oil and filters will probably be the biggest cost especially if I want to test some 0w-30 and 5w-40 syns this winter. The filters I plan to test are Motorcraft, Amsoil, and Napa Golds(wix) of various sizes because thats all I run. Maybe a fram too just to see how bad they are with that litte plastic valve in the bottom. If the tests come out with conclusive results I may do more.

What RPM and oil temp intervals do you all think I should test at. I'm thinking 20-220F in 20degree intervals and idle to 3500rpm in 500rpms increments should be enough data. The real cold temps and high temps could be hard because the oil changes temp so fast. I may have to mount the gauges in the truck so I can take numbers quicker. The extreme temps may not matter much anyway depending on if its in full bypass already. I can push 260 in the summer if I want but I don't know if I can get much colder than zero. This carbed motor complains a lot if it's started much below zero.

I just had another though. I have 400M that is being built that I could run the test on in a couple months. What better way to break in a motor than changing oil and filters a lot. It would push the test back a couple months though. How patient are you guys? Sorry for the long post. Dang I'm long winded!
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quote:

Originally posted by OffOrWFO:
Thanks for all the replies
I think this test will probably give some valuable info but it likely won't be real accurate. The way I see it the spring should start to move at 8psi and finish at 11psi if that is the specs. So if we see numbers in that range we know there is some bypassing. The other theory is that the 8-11psi is a manufacturing tolerances for the spring to be fully compressed or maybe just starting to move. Anyone got any info on what these specs really mean? Filterguy?


8-11 psi is a reasonable manufacturing tolerance for opening pressure on low priced bypass valve. That also makes more sense than them giving a range of valve operation pressures.
 
quote:

Originally posted by OffOrWFO:
427Z06, I will test a new filter and with some miles on it but not 6K. This truck('69 bronco)is only a weekend warrior so it onlys see 2-4k a year unless I take a trip down the baja or several to moab.

What if I send you a FL400s/51516/ST3600 sized filter with some miles on it? It'll take a few months for me to have one ready. I could drain it and securely package it and mail it to you. If you're not comfortable with this idea, feel free to say so, you won't hurt my feelings.
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quote:

Originally posted by OffOrWFO:
How patient are you guys?

No problem. Keep us posted of your schedule and I think we all can be patient with anyone putting forth such an effort and sharing the info.
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quote:

Originally posted by OffOrWFO:

I think I will use two 2 5/8" mechanical autometer gauges because I have to buy one for another truck anyway. This way I will only spend $40 on gauges directly for the test.


I hope you are getting gauges where the needle moves through 3/4 revolution instead of just 1/4 degrees like the real basic ones. You won't be able to read a 1/4 revolution gauge accurately enough to do what you want. It will still take some real care with a 3/4 turn gauge.

If you are able to get some accurate readings, you will be able to see wehn the bypass starts to open and when it is full open.

To do that, plot your pressure drop vs flow at a constant temperature on a graph.

Flow (rpm) across the bottom and pressure up the side.

Up to the point where the bypass opens, you should have a straight line with one slope. When the valve starts to open, the slope will flatten quite a bit. When the valve is full open, the slope will steepen again, but not as steep as before the valve opened.

You will need cold, thick oil to get the valve full open, I'm not sure you will get there. Depends on how effective the bypass circuit is.

If you have a spreadsheet program like Exel on your computer that will help a lot with the chart plotting. If not, there are lot of us here who would be glad to help.
 
quote:

I hope you are getting gauges where the needle moves through 3/4 revolution instead of just 1/4 degrees like the real basic ones. You won't be able to read a 1/4 revolution gauge accurately enough to do what you want. It will still take some real care with a 3/4 turn gauge.

All the automotive mechanical gauges that I'm aware of are 270° sweep having a center pivot point for the needle/pointer. All the electrics that I've seen are 90° sweep (even your big analog mulitmeters) having a typically bottom pivot point for the needle. The placement of the mag coils I think makes this the only practical arrangment even if you have a counter balance needle. The only alternative would be the digital type. Not that they're any more accurate than an electric ..but you can differentiate the numbers ..as opposed to guessimating the index where the needle happens to be.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
All the automotive mechanical gauges that I'm aware of are 270° sweep having a center pivot point for the needle/pointer. All the electrics that I've seen are 90° sweep (even your big analog mulitmeters) having a typically bottom pivot point for the needle.
There are plenty of cheap 90 degree mechancial gauges. The cheapest mechanical Autometer gauges are 90 degree which is why I posted that. 270 degree, or more commonly 250 degree electrical gauges exist but aren't as common. Autometer does make some but they are pricey.

You probably own some 250 to 270 degree electrical gauges. Most analog speedometers and tachometers are electrical and commonly go nearly 270 degrees.
 
I did forget to say "with the exception of" speedos and tachs ..you're correct.
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I've never seen a 90° mechanical personally ..and as much as I searched ...I haven't been able to find any automotive electricals in anything greater than 90° (again speedos and tachs exempt). I've seen some that were big enough that the 90° sweep allowed an index with finer graduations to actually yield some accuracy (like one of the older Simpson analog multimeters) ...but I've typically found them in some -astard size or some -astard voltage. You've still got a given spec for FSD (although I haven't seen it printed on the index of any meter for quite some time). I believe that the current state of analog meters employs zener diodes that allowed cheaper manufacturing since they no longer had to build the coils to compensate for the differences in supplied battery voltage. I would think that this would probably yield a higher degree of accuracy as well.


Let's get a Foxboro DPT ...hmm we can span the 4-20 ma output over a 0-30 psi range. What to use for the display ?? ...hmmm...an antiquated Honeywell 8000 series controller will do...
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:

Let's get a Foxboro DPT ...hmm we can span the 4-20 ma output over a 0-30 psi range. What to use for the display ?? ...hmmm...an antiquated Honeywell 8000 series controller will do...


An electronicer could whip up a op-amp to convert the 4-20 ma output to a 0 to 3 volt signal that could be read with a cheap azzed $4 (on sale) digital multimeter from Horrid Freight. I could design it too, but unlike an electronicer, I couldn't do it in my sleep. I would have to think about it for 20 or 30 minutes.

Converting the 4-20 ma to an easily readable digital output should cost under $20 for somone who knows what they are doing.

There is a boatload of DPTs at www.digikey.com in the $30 price range. Many of them put out a voltage signal that could be read directly by a digital meter, perhaps using a two resistor network to make the output some direct decimal function of voltage so the numbers on the meter were easily related to pressure. Might have problems with electrical noise interfering with the mv outputs, so shielded leads of a buffer amp might be needed. Still under $40 for tranducer plus misc that puts out a signal that would make sense on a digital voltmeter.

I also see some 0-1 psi (0-27 in-H2O) tranducers that would be good as air filter condition transducers in the $30 range.
 
I have an "AutoGauge by Autometer," which I thought was the cheaper line by Autometer, but this mechanical oil pressure gauge is very nice with a 270 sweep and 2 psi increments. I also have a mechanical SunPro oil pressure gauge with about an 80 degree sweep. I have heard about the 270 sweep electric gauges, which you probably could find in the JEGGs catalog.
 
Well, I'm no electonicer ....just have experience in industrial instrumentation (installation,setup, cal). I'd have to stumble around with stuff that you obviously have many evolutions beyond my experience and knowledge in. Beyond what I have experience with (typically relatively expensive but simple devices once you learn to jump through the hoops a few times) and a manual ..I'd be lost. I haven't created a semiconductor based item in over 20 or so years when I made my own boards using photo resist and ortho film. I don't even have the darkroom equipment to do it anymore.

...but, since you do have these skills, why don't you build something that will serve as a decent setup to measure PSID for this test?


I always wondered why all the questionaires that they hand you in the waiting room during the first visit always ask "low pressure?". They want to know how you do upwind.
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The gauge I have is a Autometer sportcomp 2 5/8" 270 degree sweep mechanical -Part# 3421
Autometer
I figured I'd just buy another to match. You guys lost me on all the EE stuff. Calibrating a pressure transducer would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

427z06 thanks for the offer on the filter but used filters are kind of like used...well you know.
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I have a ARX rinse filter on it that is prolly pretty dirty. Depending on what the results of the initial testing, I may consider it.
 
quote:

Originally posted by OffOrWFO:
427z06 thanks for the offer on the filter but used filters are kind of like used...well you know.
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I have a ARX rinse filter on it that is prolly pretty dirty. Depending on what the results of the initial testing, I may consider it.


No problem. I was never a big fan of sloppy seconds either.
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Posted by AB8R - We did some filter tests in the early 90s on a number of spin-on filters in actual operating conditions on a small-block chevy racing engine using an instrumented external filter housing. We found that nearly all of the filters had a low pressure drop, say 2 or 3 psi, under 4000 or so rpm, climbing toward the top end. Interestingly, we found that the filter outlet size, and not the media, was the controlling factor for pressure drop, or flow if you will. It appeared that the filter designers chose an adequate amount of media for their particular designs. We concluded that most filters we examined with hot sae 30 oil would be in full-flow mode except at high rpms. (high meaning up to 9500) The racing filters we looked at had high, around 22-26 psi, bypass pressures, and would not have bypassed. Nevertheless, in the end we used dual parallel filters, and most importantly, oversize hoses for the engine. I doubt that filters marketed as 'high flow' will perform better in service, as completely eliminating a pressure drop of 3 psi would only increase flow by 3%, an entirely neglegible amount, and they can't even do that, given that the outlet size remains the same.
 
There's an interesting extrapolation. An 16-valve single cammed SBC with a filter size of:

Style: Spin-On Lube
Media: Paper
Height: 4.338
Outer Diameter Top: 3.660
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 13/16-16
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: None
Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
15267 3.444 3.100 0.260

should be directly comparable to a DOHC (4-cams) 24-valve V6 with a filter size of:

Style: Spin-On Lube
Service: Lube
Type: Full Flow
Media: Paper
Height: 2.577
Outer Diameter Top: 2.685
Outer Diameter Bottom: Closed
Thread Size: 20X1.5 MM
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI: 8-11
Anti-Drain Back Valve: Yes
Gasket Diameters
Number O.D. I.D. Thk.
Attached 2.475 2.173 0.233

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Further, whoever you quote above states they ran the test with "Hot SAE 30 oil". Go back and look at the original intent of the test, "to determine how often the bypass in FF filters open during normal operation." Most of us have already figured out that "Hot SAE 30 oil" will flow through just about any filter on the market without your help. But we did it with testing, data and math, not opinions.

If you don't want to participate in the test, don't! There's a few of us that want some hard data instead of wild extrapolations and opinions.
 
The title of this thread is - Test Idea To Determine If Filters Bypass During Normal Operation

Some guy has done some work on the subject and you don't want to see it. OK by me.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Ugly3:
The title of this thread is - Test Idea To Determine If Filters Bypass During Normal Operation.

Yes, and part of normal operation means that the oil in an engine will be less than the ideal operating temperature at some point. When you start an engine that's been sitting for a while in 20F weather it doesn't jump to full operating temperature instantly.

quote:


Some guy has done some work on the subject and you don't want to see it. OK by me.


We have no idea who this guy is and what all the varibles involved in his test procedures. Posting a link lends more credibilty. To easy to excerpt something and take it out of context.

Finally, providing information is welcomed, but it's obvious you have an agenda from some of what you posted and PMs you sent to me. You want us to believe you have all the answers and you already know the answers to some of the questions we have. Sorry, but I've seen most of the same information you keep on posting and PMing me before, and I'm still not satisfied. I want some hard data.

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