Tesla vs Porsche...

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Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Every car has issues. Look at the owner satisfaction. You said they make junk cars - doesnt seem the owners agree. Please post up some actual 3rd party data to look at vs making claims. UD
I said they make junk cars that people love. Consumer Reports has backed my assessment. You're the one with the magazine...go look at all the red down arrows Teslas have next to their ratings.
?!??!?!?? What red down arrows? [Linked Image]
 

Ws6

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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Every car has issues. Look at the owner satisfaction. You said they make junk cars - doesnt seem the owners agree. Please post up some actual 3rd party data to look at vs making claims. UD
I said they make junk cars that people love. Consumer Reports has backed my assessment. You're the one with the magazine...go look at all the red down arrows Teslas have next to their ratings.
?!??!?!?? What red down arrows? [Linked Image]
Go ahead...show us what is written at the tops of those columns, LOL! (HINT: It has nothing to do with reliability. You just posted owner satisfaction scores again, nice try? let's see reliability wink ) https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/15/tes...ribe-pressure-to-make-model-3-goals.html
Quote
Employees in the open-air GA4 "tent," which is not fully automated, tell CNBC they were pressured to take shortcuts to hit goals — reducing vehicle testing for water leaks and using electrical tape on plastic housings to make quick fixes during Model 3 assembly.
https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/
Quote
Consumer Reports can no longer recommend the newest Tesla—the Model 3 electric sedan—because members say they've identified a number of problems with their cars, including issues with its body hardware, as well as paint and trim. CR members reported these results in our annual reliability survey, which includes data on about 470,000 vehicles.
 
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What backs your junk assertion? From the same article (left out by you of course) A Tesla spokesperson said the anecdotes employees shared about work in the tent are "misleading and do not reflect our manufacturing practices or what it's like to work at Tesla." Who said junk beside you? CR reversed themselves ( acouple times on this I think) Let say CR doenst recommend buying it -does that mean its "junk"? UD
 
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JeffKeryk

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CR is a great resource because it does not take advertising. CR is a poor source for statistics because it polls its members. I believe the Tesla reviews had 500 responses and was for early cars. Of course they originally gave the Model S the highest rating of any vehicle ever tested. Safety? How about the highest rating? NHTSA Safety Rating I guess all other cars must be junk?
 
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What difference does it make to you what WS6 thinks? Personally, I do NOT care what he thinks about my P3 Performance. I do suspect he will change his mind if he were strapped in there but that is neither here nor there. He has irrational hate for Tesla. OK, fine. Are you afraid that he is able to sway other people with his opinion? Why? Is there a real need for Tesla evangelists in the world? The car stands on its own.
 
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Originally Posted by Vikas
What difference does it make to you what WS6 thinks? Personally, I do NOT care what he thinks about my P3 Performance. I do suspect he will change his mind if he were strapped in there but that is neither here nor there. He has irrational hate for Tesla. OK, fine. Are you afraid that he is able to sway other people with his opinion? Why? Is there a real need for Tesla evangelists in the world? The car stands on its own.
Im always looking for data I may not have seen before. UD
 

JeffKeryk

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Uncle Dave, I can give you real world data if you might be interested. People go crazy over these cars. They love 'em! We let others take a spin in our Model 3. Recently I tool my boss and his boss (Exec VP) out because my exec is considering one. From UK, he drives a BMW Diesel at home and a Subaru SUV here (skiing and biking). You have NEVER seen such a smile from that 1st drive. It starts with the right now speed; then the regenerative braking; then the ultra quick steering and flat cornering. Point and shoot, baby. AP? Scary incredible. Guaranteed, "Wow!" And the interior brilliance thru simplicity knocks them out. As Vikas posted, the car stands on its own. The Model 3 offers the future today.
 
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Ws6

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Originally Posted by Vikas
What difference does it make to you what WS6 thinks? Personally, I do NOT care what he thinks about my P3 Performance. I do suspect he will change his mind if he were strapped in there but that is neither here nor there. He has irrational hate for Tesla. OK, fine. Are you afraid that he is able to sway other people with his opinion? Why? Is there a real need for Tesla evangelists in the world? The car stands on its own.
Your P3 performs similar to other conventional vehicles I've owned, but they are neat. Tesla just needs to go away OR partner up OR figure out how to build and stand behind a quality vehicle. A car is not just an engine strapped to a chassis. It needs to operate properly, and at this price point, have somewhat sensible paint, and fit/finish.
 

Ws6

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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Vikas
What difference does it make to you what WS6 thinks? Personally, I do NOT care what he thinks about my P3 Performance. I do suspect he will change his mind if he were strapped in there but that is neither here nor there. He has irrational hate for Tesla. OK, fine. Are you afraid that he is able to sway other people with his opinion? Why? Is there a real need for Tesla evangelists in the world? The car stands on its own.
Im always looking for data I may not have seen before. UD
Consumer Reports, CNBC, a ton of others have exposed quality, safety, and workplace condition issues with Tesla and their products. Wal-Mart and many others are suing them because they can't even make solar panels that don't burn buildings down. Elon is running Tesla into the dirt, and it could have been such a good thing.
 

Ws6

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Originally Posted by UncleDave
What backs your junk assertion? From the same article (left out by you of course) A Tesla spokesperson said the anecdotes employees shared about work in the tent are "misleading and do not reflect our manufacturing practices or what it's like to work at Tesla." Who said junk beside you? CR reversed themselves ( acouple times on this I think) Let say CR doenst recommend buying it -does that mean its "junk"? UD
I guess that's why Tesla is being fined for workplace environment violations. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanoh...math-of-musks-model-3-push/#60c2fc3b54ce I guess you're okay with the fact that Tesla releases ZERO information on vehicle PPH, etc. I guess "I like how it drives" overshadows every single review agency out there nearly saying that "they have issues". And that's cool, too, but it's not enough to keep Tesla alive. They need to actually turn a profit. To do that, they need to stop losing multi-million dollar sales, etc. Any time ANY data except for customer enjoyment of the vehicle leaks out, it looks REALLY bad. Yes, powerful electric cars are fun. Like I said. Teslas are Toys.
 
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Originally Posted by Ws6
I guess that's why Tesla is being fined for workplace environment violations. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanoh...math-of-musks-model-3-push/#60c2fc3b54ce I guess you're okay with the fact that Tesla releases ZERO information on vehicle PPH, etc. I guess "I like how it drives" overshadows every single review agency out there nearly saying that "they have issues". And that's cool, too, but it's not enough to keep Tesla alive. They need to actually turn a profit. To do that, they need to stop losing multi-million dollar sales, etc. Any time ANY data except for customer enjoyment of the vehicle leaks out, it looks REALLY bad. Yes, powerful electric cars are fun. Like I said. Teslas are Toys.
Is there another car that simultaneously holds the highest satisfaction score that is also "junk"? Ive ever seen those two ratings co exist - its only you claiming "junk." I have not seen the " really bad data" that is being described,youve been talking about - Please post that comparative specific data - Im open to it. If I had it Id post it. Id expect the newest guy to have the hardest time with fines - especially a non union shop under continuous assault form the UAW. Few to no others actually turn a profit in the long run - hence bailouts and massive loans, and subsidies from their governments. Mazda would have died if not rescued by Ford. IF you dont like VW and you don't like Tesla why participate in the thread? UD
 
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Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Vikas
What difference does it make to you what WS6 thinks? Personally, I do NOT care what he thinks about my P3 Performance. I do suspect he will change his mind if he were strapped in there but that is neither here nor there. He has irrational hate for Tesla. OK, fine. Are you afraid that he is able to sway other people with his opinion? Why? Is there a real need for Tesla evangelists in the world? The car stands on its own.
Im always looking for data I may not have seen before. UD
Consumer Reports, CNBC, a ton of others have exposed quality, safety, and workplace condition issues with Tesla and their products. Wal-Mart and many others are suing them because they can't even make solar panels that don't burn buildings down. Elon is running Tesla into the dirt, and it could have been such a good thing.
Yet only one senior management team is in jail......
 
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- Back to the cars leaving the companies for another discussion- Taycan Pros Great sustained performance Nice interior closer to conventional car Theoretical unlock of greater charging speed. Taycan Cons Late delivery to market Missed the charging speed target at delivery Missed the range target Missed the efficiency target Missing a charging network to make it workable on a trip No OTA updates Giant price premium Small "ish" sedan closer to model 3 in size vs S What else?
 
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JeffKeryk

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The Taycan and Tesla is not really a good comparison due to the price difference. The Taycan and Tesla is a comparison because they are the only 2 high end EVs. From a performance standpoint, the Tesla is faster; the Taycan handles better. Fit and finish of the Porsche is gonna be stellar. Both are beautiful cars. Tesla has the charger infrastructure; Porsche has the dealer network (not necessarily the trained staff, etc.). From an EV standpoint, the Tesla is technologically superior. The Porsche gets close but is beat by the older, cheaper Tesla. But part of that is, the Tesla has been selling their Model S since 2012. In the end, the competition is a win in all aspects. Going forward, the Tesla Roadster, the Model Y and other vehicles promise to be incredible achievements. I am not sure what Porsche has in the tank. For me, our Model 3 is simply fantastic. It is ahead of the Model S because it is a newer car.
 
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Ws6

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Originally Posted by UncleDave
Originally Posted by Ws6
I guess that's why Tesla is being fined for workplace environment violations. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanoh...math-of-musks-model-3-push/#60c2fc3b54ce I guess you're okay with the fact that Tesla releases ZERO information on vehicle PPH, etc. I guess "I like how it drives" overshadows every single review agency out there nearly saying that "they have issues". And that's cool, too, but it's not enough to keep Tesla alive. They need to actually turn a profit. To do that, they need to stop losing multi-million dollar sales, etc. Any time ANY data except for customer enjoyment of the vehicle leaks out, it looks REALLY bad. Yes, powerful electric cars are fun. Like I said. Teslas are Toys.
Is there another car that simultaneously holds the highest satisfaction score that is also "junk"? Ive ever seen those two ratings co exist - its only you claiming "junk." I have not seen the " really bad data" that is being described,youve been talking about - Please post that comparative specific data - Im open to it. If I had it Id post it. Id expect the newest guy to have the hardest time with fines - especially a non union shop under continuous assault form the UAW. Few to no others actually turn a profit in the long run - hence bailouts and massive loans, and subsidies from their governments. Mazda would have died if not rescued by Ford. IF you dont like VW and you don't like Tesla why participate in the thread? UD
Consumer Reports is the largest sample size of Tesla's. They reliability is very low, and their satisfaction score is very high, based on owners. Tesla does not publish their pph data, so literally the only reliability data available, is that of Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and the like. All of which have very negative things to say about durability and reliability. https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2018/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/ You cannot find ANY "actual data" beyond surveys regarding Tesla reliability. There is probably a reason for that...and every single survey places them high on driver enjoyment, and very low on reliability, so it's doubtful it's just "disappointed owners" dogging the brand. Tesla has issues. They can't even make a solar panel for crying out loud. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49421725
 
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Your P3 performs similar to other conventional vehicles I've owned, but they are neat.
Which one you have owned which is similar? Did you own current Alfa Guilia QF? Current BMW M5 competition? Or Mercedes AMG C63? Or SRT Hellcat? Or even Mistu EVO or Subary WRX Rallye etc although I think they are one rung lower than the cars I mentioned. I am trying to come up with other 5-seater family sedans but I am having hard time. Please help me. I am taking a guess here but I don't think you have ever sat in P3 Performance. I suspect you have never been inside a moving Tesla. Tesla build "quality" aka panel gaps is now legendary folklore and it does not really matter what the reality is at least as far as you are concerned. Don't get me wrong. If somebody needs reasons NOT to purchase Model 3 Performance, I will given them plenty! But astute reader would immediately realize that my whining about is trivial or could find reasonable workarounds. One thing is guaranteed though, driving pleasure will NOT be the one in that whine list! If you want to have smile on your face when you touch the accelerator pedal or yank the steering wheel, this is your vehicle. Very very few cars obey your command to go or turn instantly and without any drama whatsoever and that's why it is so loved by their owners even with its all real and imaginary warts.
 
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Ws6

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Originally Posted by Vikas
Quote
Your P3 performs similar to other conventional vehicles I've owned, but they are neat.
Which one you have owned which is similar? Did you own current Alfa Guilia QF? Current BMW M5 competition? Or Mercedes AMG C63? Or SRT Hellcat? Or even Mistu EVO or Subary WRX Rallye etc although I think they are one rung lower than the cars I mentioned. I am trying to come up with other 5-seater family sedans but I am having hard time. Please help me. I am taking a guess here but I don't think you have ever sat in P3 Performance. I suspect you have never been inside a moving Tesla. Tesla build "quality" aka panel gaps is now legendary folklore and it does not really matter what the reality is at least as far as you are concerned. Don't get me wrong. If somebody needs reasons NOT to purchase Model 3 Performance, I will given them plenty! But astute reader would immediately realize that my whining about is trivial or could find reasonable workarounds. One thing is guaranteed though, driving pleasure will NOT be the one in that whine list! If you want to have smile on your face when you touch the accelerator pedal or yank the steering wheel, this is your vehicle. Very very few cars obey your command to go or turn instantly and without any drama whatsoever and that's why it is so loved by their owners even with its all real and imaginary warts.
I had a c6 z06. Obviously a different class of vehicle, but I put up with a lot of "meh" aspects for that performance...and I enjoyed it. Very Tesla like in that regard.
 

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Originally Posted by Ws6
Consumer Reports is the largest sample size of Tesla's. They reliability is very low, and their satisfaction score is very high, based on owners. Tesla does not publish their pph data, so literally the only reliability data available, is that of Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and the like. All of which have very negative things to say about durability and reliability. https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2018/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/
Thanks for the articles. I did not see "very negative things about durability and reliability." Average was closer to what I read. Things like the Model X Falcon doors were kinda silly in my opinion, but I guess they are good in parking spaces. Fit and finish is not reliability, it is quality. By the way, our car is perfect. I definitely checked it out before taking ownership. To me, reliability means the vehicle will not leave me stranded and starts every day. I know of no studies that show Teslas fail in that regard. One might say the ultimate measure of a vehicle is owner satisfaction. Tesla has that in spades and is growing. There is simply no other car like them.
 
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Originally Posted by Ws6
Consumer Reports is the largest sample size of Tesla's. They reliability is very low, and their satisfaction score is very high, based on owners. Tesla does not publish their pph data, so literally the only reliability data available, is that of Consumer Reports, Edmunds, and the like. All of which have very negative things to say about durability and reliability. https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2018/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car...-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/ You cannot find ANY "actual data" beyond surveys regarding Tesla reliability. There is probably a reason for that...and every single survey places them high on driver enjoyment, and very low on reliability, so it's doubtful it's just "disappointed owners" dogging the brand. Tesla has issues. They can't even make a solar panel for crying out loud. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49421725
First link only says questionable durability - with no qualifier beyond that I can see. The CR link has a range - inconsistent, above average to below average. I dont see very bad, or junk, or very negative. Many many very old experienced manufactures have model that fall in these same ranges, but very few occupy the peak satisfaction score. UD
 
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