Tesla transitions grid storage to LFP prismatic cells made in China

[OVERKILL]

Sometime in 2021 (officially for 2022) Tesla quietly transitioned the Megapack to the Megapack 2, which brought with it a change in cell type, going from conventional cylindrical cells to prismatic, coupled with a change in chemistry, to LFP. These cells are made by CATL in China.

Some slides from Tesla's presentation on this:

If I remember correctly, these are the same cells they were using in certain versions of the cars for the Chinese market?

 

[fantastic]

Surprised they're not using their giga factory batteries?

 

[Vitamin Yoda]

Surprised they're not using their giga factory batteries?

One could argue that their presence in the Chinese market, and them manufacturing vehicles in China, demands that they work with Chinese suppliers. That's just my personal opinion, I have no evidence whatsoever to support it.

 

[Trav]

So much for giga and making it in the USA this that and the other, musk hops in bed with the chicoms when it suits his own pockets, American workers be ****ed . JK and his cronies will be in for the spin shortly.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

One could argue that their presence in the Chinese market, and them manufacturing vehicles in China, demands that they work with Chinese suppliers. That's just my personal opinion, I have no evidence whatsoever to support it.

Many automakers have been forced to use CATL not only in China but in their own backyard.
List of automakers who use CATL batteries directly or via licensing:

BMW, Daimler AG, Hyundai, Honda, Li Auto, NIO, PSA, Tesla, Toyota, Volkswagen, Volvo and XPeng.

FORD via licensing of CATL design.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

So much for giga and making it in the USA this that and the other, musk hops in bed with the chicoms when it suits his own pockets, American workers be ****ed . JK and his cronies will be in for the spin shortly.

Battery plants take a couple of years to build and billions in subsidies (direct as well as regulatory) have been thrown at the industry to encourage domestic production. Of course the flip side is that the Anti-EV crowd then crows about how expensive EV's are and that nobody wants them meanwhile cheaper EV's can't be imported due to tariffs.

When you have comparatively high wages you can't build a wall around your domestic market and at the same time expect said product to be cost competitive.


Edit: I have a cousin who owns an IT company in silicon valley. About 10 yrs ago he told me he could hire 100 electrical engineers in China for 1 US based engineer.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The energy storage business is going to be a big deal. I hope we see continuous improvement with them. Unfortunately this has added a huge extra cost to power distribution.

This reminds me of the TiVo recorders to time-shift television shows. Remember them?

 

[OVERKILL]

Surprised they're not using their giga factory batteries?

Well, that's just it, they've migrated from using their own cylindrical cells (which @JHZR2 has commented on considerably) to prismatic cells, which was the first eye opener, given all the hype about the cylindrical cells being superior.

That these are LFP, didn't surprise me, since I knew they had shifted to LFP in some applications including stationary storage because of its reduced likelihood to catch fire and greater tolerance for non-optimized charging, but of course it also has a slightly lower energy density.

But, them shifting out of house with this move, to Chinese prismatic cells, yeah, that's surprising, given, as @Trav notes, all the hype about making their own batteries.

 

[Torrid]

Well, that's just it, they've migrated from using their own cylindrical cells (which @JHZR2 has commented on considerably) to prismatic cells, which was the first eye opener, given all the hype about the cylindrical cells being superior.

That these are LFP, didn't surprise me, since I knew they had shifted to LFP in some applications including stationary storage because of its reduced likelihood to catch fire and greater tolerance for non-optimized charging, but of course it also has a slightly lower energy density.

But, them shifting out of house with this move, to Chinese prismatic cells, yeah, that's surprising, given, as @Trav notes, all the hype about making their own batteries.

I think the LFP might be a stop gap for lower prices in the more base models, but the performance Teslas may not get enough power supply for full acceleration from LFP and definitely won't have the range since they're less energy dense.

I'm sure whatever they're working on will end up being a cost saving to them and end up in all the cars in the future, but while I like how LFP works and doesn't care as much about full charging, it's probably still not the best solution to them long term. They may even find a way to design more efficient LFP cells, but regardless I know the move to get away from cobalt is probably a goal for the whole line either way.

 

[JeffKeryk]

There may be some misunderstanding here.. The Tesla Megapack and Megapack2 are not car batteries; they are mass storage batteries. My understanding is their use is mainly grid back up and reliability.

Having said that, Tesla uses numerous sources for car batteries. This is nothing new.
Tesla started using the LFP batteries in the American market Model 3 Std Range deliveries in 2021 I believe. Before that, the Shanghai plant used them for the markets in China, the Asia-Pac region and Europe.

Tesla works with several companies to source batteries for its lofty production goals. Companies include Panasonic, its longtime partner, South Korea’s LG Energy Solutions, the second largest battery supplier in the world. They supply Tesla with cells containing nickel and cobalt.

CATL has been supplying LFP batteries to Tesla for cars made at its Shanghai plant since 2020. Tesla is working with BYD on with the Blade battery.

Of course, this is true not just for Tesla, but for every carmaker producing EVs today and going forward.
In 2020, Musk announced Tesla had acquired the rights to lithium-rich clay deposits in Nevada; it said it had found a way to mine the material in a sustainable and simple way using table salt and water. But mining lithium is not easy...
Even though Tesla does not mine lithium at the moment, it recently broke ground on its Texas lithium refinery.

 

[OVERKILL]

There may be some misunderstanding here.. The Tesla Megapack and Megapack2 are not car batteries;

I can assure you there is no confusion as to their use.

I will note however that the Megapack (not the Megapack 2) used the same batteries as the cars. That was part of the "infrastructure efficiency" approach. That's likely still the case with the prismatic LFP cells, just now for different cars.

I just found it surprising (hence the sharing of the slides) that they would choose to transition their grid storage solution batteries to Chinese cells from CATL. The optics of this are obviously not favourable to anyone paying attention, particularly given the current hoopla regarding onshoring.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I can assure you there is no confusion as to their use.

I will note however that the Megapack (not the Megapack 2) used the same batteries as the cars. That was part of the "infrastructure efficiency" approach. That's likely still the case with the prismatic LFP cells, just now for different cars.

I just found it surprising (hence the sharing of the slides) that they would choose to transition their grid storage solution batteries to Chinese cells from CATL. The optics of this are obviously not favourable to anyone paying attention, particularly given the current hoopla regarding onshoring.

I respectully disagree; a number of the posts are referring to EV batteries. Your thread is about Megapacks.
Onshoring and re-onshoring will take many years and a lot of will. I am not sure the will is here but time will tell.
Perhaps you would agree that Tesla's Refinery investment is a step in this direction. It's encouraging to see other American refineries expanding as well.

 

[OVERKILL]

I respectully disagree; a number of the posts are referring to EV batteries. Your thread is about Megapacks.

I don't see that as a point of confusion, due to the considerable crossover, despite the topic of the thread. This slide from the same presentation shows that:

It also shows the departure from the shared architecture with the MegaPack 2 and 2XL, due to the move away from cylindrical cells.

Onshoring and re-onshoring will take many years and a lot of will. I am not sure the will is here but time will tell.

Precisely my concern. With all the chatter about re-shoring offshored production, this decision seems to be quite the opposite approach, which begs the question whether the will is there, as you allude to.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I don't see that as a point of confusion, due to the considerable crossover, despite the topic of the thread. This slide from the same presentation shows that:


It also shows the departure from the shared architecture with the MegaPack 2 and 2XL, due to the move away from cylindrical cells.

The title of your thread is, "Tesla transitions grid storage to LFP prismatic cells made in China".
Seeing the automobile posts, I thought to clarify the topic.
My post enumerated the procurement of EV batteries including timelines, in support of the question at the end of your thread.
Fair enough, we can disagree.